I know that some people including myself are unhappy with the new "Switch to Nexuiz mode / Switch to Havoc mode" button present in the 3 menus, so I thought making a topic to discuss this more in depth would be a good idea.

As I stated in another thread, I personally believe that button is really not a good idea and hope 2.5 will not be released with it like that. A single button located in 3 windows which replaces all menu and system settings only for a few gameplay changes is not something I personally believe is right. I also believe Havoc mode's current implementation is too early to be in the menus yet.

The best way in which I think Havoc mode should be implemented is a mutator. Any change that Havoc mode can do (changing default weapon pickups, ammo / health limits, firing rate / firing types even physics and scoring system changes) can be implemented on a single cvar. If the changes it does are big (total gameplay conversions) we could make a new section in the mutators window for heavier gameplay changes, where Havoc mode could reside as a checkbox (or radio button against Nexuiz mode) and without changing any menus and system settings when switched to.

Anyway, as of current these are some ways in which I think this could be improved (just ideas and beliefs, I'm not saying anything needs to be done in any way):

- As I said I think the current way of switching to Havoc mode is not a correct implementation and that it's too early to have this in the menus, so for the moment this might be better off removed and left as a cvar until a better way to implement it would be found. I'm going to remove it from my menus either way as it incommodes me the way it is.

- I made a new mods window patch located over here. The devs rejected it as I made it but maybe other modifications can be done to it or this patch could still have some use.

- A cvar to remove the button from the 3 windows (disabled by default so the buttons are normally there). Would give those of us who are incommoded by that button a way to easily remove it if we don't want it there.

So yeah, any ideas or changes regarding this can go about about here. As I said I'd personally go the way of the mutator because I believe that is best.

Actually when i try to download that patch i do not get the complete file.. either currently sf.net sucks or maybe you made a mistake when uploading the patch.
Also the patch was not applied because it seems corrupt and because it think its currently the wrong approach and NOT because you made it. What a stupid idea is that??? Why should the devs dislike a patch because you made it?

And then.. Havoc is not just a mutator as it changes quite a lot, almost all guns work differently to normal Nexuiz, the physics are slight different and also some client default settings are different (no music active for example) and also server side stuff like weapons in the middle, no recoil and such.. Making it a mutator is basicly impossible and also the wrong way. Mutators add SMALL changes/features and do not change almost everything. Also making it a mutator is almost impossible as it would require keeping the 'old/previous' settings for when you disable the mutator. So a mutator for havoc is really a bad idea!
Also it changes the game quite a bit and is considered for people that dislike certain aspects that havoc tries to address.

Currently a mod 'menu' can't really show anything meaningful! "real mods' are directories besides the data dir, (just as the havoc dir is) but the menu code can't see stuff outside the data dir for security reasons. So right now all one could do is hardcode a menu with TWO entries (data and havoc) but thats just not enough to warrent a menu!

Granted the button is not the most perfect thing but it will make people familiar with havoc and show them a new way to play nexuiz. Which in the long turn hopefully makes some admins host havoc servers too.
I do not see whats so bad about the current button to warrent two threads?
Hell its just a small button.. a variable to disable the buttons? Too much work and in my eyes very useless

esteel wrote:Also the patch was not applied because it seems corrupt and because it think its currently the wrong approach and NOT because you made it. What a stupid idea is that??? Why should the devs dislike a patch because you made it?

That's not what I meant to say. I meant "as I made it" as in "the way I made it", referring to the way I made the patch and the changes in it. Sorry, I still have times when I can't write my sentences correctly for some reason I know that if a patch is rejected it is because it should be.

Anyway I could download the patch correctly from SF and it doesn't seem corrupted to me. It ads a new file as well so probably that's why? Here is another link if it's the patch file being corrupted.

And as far as I know these changes can apply to a mutator as well. For instance playing ambient music could be linked to a cvar, and if the mutator is on music is not played back from the code. Client-side changes could be applied by having the client read the server mutators and act accordingly (eg: the client checks and sees the cvar is enabled on the server and passes on playing music if it is) though that could add some code complexity. Physics, weapons spawning in other locations and the like can be made dependent on a single cvars too from what I know if I'm not wrong.

You forget that these changes should only affect the DEFAULTS, and not force the client side changes.

Havoc is simply preconfigured for "pro-gamers", while Nexuiz is preconfigured for most fun and good visual experience.

divVerent wrote:Havoc is simply preconfigured for "pro-gamers"

This is very far-fetched.

Let's say that LordHavoc intended it to be that way.

Havoc, nexball, spidflisk should be included as mods in the end. There could be a list to choose a mod from.

No, nexuiz should not include every mod there is.. but making a nice list to choose from ONCE the engine can give you such a list would be nice. Its just not possible at the moment.

How will people know that these mods exist if there would be no sign in menu? Should they lurk in the forums? I think 99% of Nexuiz players have no clue about nexball.

Its currently JUST NOT POSSIBLE to know if such a mod is installed or not!!!! So you can't add them to a fictious menu because if the mod is not installed it would behave badly

As far as I know Nexball is a gametype. As for the mods menu I really hope that will be in someday soon.

Just another thought: Maybe the current mod switch button could be moved in the main menu between Credits and Quit? Not a menu popup containing that button but the button itself if buttons can be put on the main menu and not only dialog popups can.

This is currently technically not possible.

There is no difference between gametype and mod. CTF was a gametype mod as well as TF.

There is. Havoc is a whole different set of cvars. If the cvars for the same setting had different names in Nexuiz and in Havoc, it'd be a real maintenance nightmare, and Havoc would never work, as there'd always be some missing cvar.

Instead of complaining about everything, why don't you show us how much better YOU can do it?

What's bad about the buttons? They look fine and let you know havoc mode exists and allow you to easily switch to it.

I'm not against including havoc (if anyone cares to read), but asked to include nexball and spidflisk (and not now, but some time later, otherwise nobody will even know that those gameplay mods exist).

Alien wrote:I'm not against including havoc (if anyone cares to read), but asked to include nexball and spidflisk (and not now, but some time later, otherwise nobody will even know that those gameplay mods exist).

That's not how a mod works...
The thing is that nexuiz "mods" should better be considered as forks. And I'm maintaining the nexball fork. Noone except me and the devs will decide whether it is merged or not, and I decided it is not ready yet, because it is still too glitchy.

One more thing... Merging the forks into the trunk will not make them more popular: the popularity of nexball relies on server admins. Anyone wanting to run a nexball server can do so, and anyone wanting to play it can join the server.
Everyone expects stuff to happen with nexball, but noone gives me feedback. I've been chaining 3 beta releases without anyone seeming to care, besides -z- who runs a server, the PB's who help me testing it (:)), and a few other people. I can't make it merge without even knowing if it works.

Well, Nexball IS planned to be included with later releases, once it is stable. It would be a game mode though, so it can be combined with Havoc.

Spidflisk is not, because its author is not cooperative and simply does not WANT it to be in regular Nexuiz.

You can't expect servers popping up with mod which is unknown to most of the players. But it's your choice, I'm not coercing anyone.

Before admins should be made aware of the mod it needs to be in a good enough shape..

There is something I am unclear about: Are mods just different sets of default system cvars or do they also include code changes? I mean, is the only difference between Nexuiz mode and Havoc mode that each loads a different preset of cvars, or are there also changes in the game code for each apart from that?

If its only cvars, mods could work by each mod being be a .cfg file that anyone can put in data (probably in a folder called mods or something). One could then make a mod by copying defaultNexuiz.cfg and renaming it, modify any cvars in it as they wish and then the game would display all such .cfgs in a list (the mods menu).

Renaming files is just bad.

I'd say what a mod is DEPENDS.. basicly every change not in the official Nexuiz can be considered a mod(ification). A gamemode is a basic ruleset that defines how the 'current' game works. That being DM, TDM, ONS, CTF.. or mods that bring new gamemodes like nexball.
Havoc is also a mod (but a official one) because its included with Nexuiz. Havoc is a physics/gun mod but does not change a single gamemode. And its also 'simple' because it just changes existing settings. However SO much that making it a mutator would be hard or almost impossible to do right/without creating problems.

Well using an other directory is the cleanest way.. because the client also saves screenshots, demos and such under this different directory. Also using an other dir also makes sure that a modification does not change the 'default settings' for Nexuiz. Not even by chance. There are/were even some badly done maps (!) that changed some settings.. thats just bad.