Nah... messing up the source code I think I could've made the camera look from the gun even now.

I warn you, you might get unplayable results, as you'll see right through the smoke trails

To the topic .. I think the nexuiz CFG is just as every 3Dshooter CFG. I dont see a need for a change. People who like to change that will just do it ...

divVerent wrote:I really prefer Nexuiz's way over Q3A's, as it's not lying.

thats ok and maybe the nexuiz way is not lying .. but the crosshair is lying, read next! Also in Q3, it doesnt work at every spot in the map. It seems to be a "known bug" in some maps. You can shot through some walls (1mm through the wall) at some spots where you cant see the enemy.

divVerent wrote:As far as I know, rockets tend to come out of rocket launchers and not out of eyes. Case closed.

Thats ok, too. But really, If you aim with the nex (or any other weapon .. ) 1mm-1cm above a wall, you will hit the wall. Why? I dont get it. Thats something which has to be fixed. It just has to be precise, meaning: hit where the crosshair aims at. So please fix that! The crosshair shows in some spots NOT where you aim at. And this is just not right! If I aim on the ground under me and hit the wall, whats the point of the crosshair in that spot? If you would do it in reality, it would be hard to hit your legs if you aim at something else ... (well, maybe i could do it, but not somebody who is used in using weapons as i am in using nexgun in nexuiz :>)

Overall, you cant shot at every target you can see in some spots. And if the shots come out of the weapon, you should be able to hit it like in reality (at least with the nex, as it doesnt have a "big" projectile, like the rocket!)

Bundy wrote:Thats ok, too. But really, If you aim with the nex (or any other weapon .. ) 1mm-1cm above a wall, you will hit the wall. Why?

Because the wall is in the way. It should be no other way as it'll encourage camping. Camping bad.

Bundy wrote:It just has to be precise, meaning: hit where the crosshair aims at. So please fix that!

It does not need 'fixing', other games which shoot from the eye need fixing. There is also a cvar for a floating crosshair which points along the line of fire but I've forgotten what it is now, it's a Darkplaces default.

Making aim so perfect is bad for gameplay. Someone running freely in game should always have an advantage over someone camping behind a wall, it encourages good gameplay.

well, this is clearly a discussion where arguments from players coming from a competitive background against coders who are looking for a project I'd just call now "lets convert nexuiz into a virtual-reality game" or players who prefer realism as well.

Players from a competitive background do want precision at the costs of realism. It doesn't have to look right (see rail beam in Quake3 going through edges of the wall), or doesn't have to be realistic (rockets coming out of your eye). The other party (that I don't understand) doesn't want that, and both parties are able to come up with several more or less sound arguments.

When we have a look at the past, we will learn this: both parties have strong opinions, and do not care (i.e. do not WANT to care, also applies to me) about the opinions of the other party. This happened also in the 2 other major games, such as UT(2KX) and Quake 3/4. The solution was pretty simple: split the community. There is a good reason why there are mods like Quake 3 CPMA/OSP, Q4Max or UT-Comp. They implemented features for the competitive gamers, and split the community on purpose.

For all the years I've been trying and fighting with the time I have had available to avoid this, as I'd rather have such features implemented officially in Nexuiz (this is a OSS game after all). Also, as one of the persons who have big influence on the ladder/tourney server configs, I've avoided all the time to modify elements/variables compared to the game defaults that are critical for the game, or I made them votable. And last but not least you know the outcome: the tourney mod used in v2.4 was completely included into the game.

The reason why I do this is that I don't want any further splits in the community, it is already small enough.

However, about this discussion: it looks funny because the parties are trying to disable the arguments of the other side using a similar structure, e.g. "the game lies <-> the crosshair lies". That that this would get us anywhere. But what I know is the the coders, pardon coder, of the game are on the side of "virtual-reality" party. I hope that I can help the situation with some coding, but we'll see...

alpha wrote:

divVerent wrote:As far as I know, rockets tend to come out of rocket launchers and not out of eyes. Case closed.

Crosshair: thing that shows where projectiles would be shot at.
(...)

Bundy wrote:(...)
But really, If you aim with the nex (or any other weapon .. ) 1mm-1cm above a wall, you will hit the wall. Why? I dont get it. Thats something which has to be fixed. It just has to be precise, meaning: hit where the crosshair aims at. So please fix that! The crosshair shows in some spots NOT where you aim at. And this is just not right! If I aim on the ground under me and hit the wall, whats the point of the crosshair in that spot? If you would do it in reality, it would be hard to hit your legs if you aim at something else ... (well, maybe i could do it, but not somebody who is used in using weapons as i am in using nexgun in nexuiz :>)

Overall, you cant shot at every target you can see in some spots. And if the shots come out of the weapon, you should be able to hit it like in reality (at least with the nex, as it doesnt have a "big" projectile, like the rocket!)

The code works this way (for projectiles with a linear trajectory): when you shoot, the projectile spawns in the muzzle, and takes a linear trajectory going right to the point indicated by the crosshair (plus spread). So the parallax is corrected by the projectile's trajectory. If there happens to be a wall inbetween, then you can only blame yourself.
What you're wanting is that the projectile gets launched from outside the weapon when it's not able to hit the aim point? It is technically possible, but does not make any sense at all to me. Weapons just don't work this way.
In 'real life' weapons, the crosshair should be adjusted to correct parallax, based on the approximate distance of the target. This is exactly what nexuiz does, but here the weapon is adjusted relatively to the sight, and not the opposite, so the crosshair stays at the center of the screen.


Green, the problem is not realism, but having weapon models in a player's hands does not make any sense if projectiles shoot out of the player's face.

And well.... the air controll doesn't make any sense.
Having such a powerfull rocket jump doesn't make any sense.
Oh... and why is it when I shoot heavy rockets while being in the air doesn't push me the other side(my English let's me down here. Nexuiz should obey conservation of linear momentum )? Doesn't make any sense.

But hell... The first two are done exactly for the game to be playable.
So is the shoot from eye thing.
Well let's face it. This is not Counter-Strike or FireArms. There will never be much of a realism.


And camping... The current deal mostly makes nex and other weapons less usable in any situation. Every time you are at the higher level then your oponent.
And it doesn't make camping less usable. It makes _all_ aspects of the game less enjoyable.

Waterlaz wrote:And well.... the air controll doesn't make any sense.
Having such a powerfull rocket jump doesn't make any sense.
Oh... and why is it when I shoot heavy rockets while being in the air doesn't push me the other side(my English let's me down here. Nexuiz should obey conservation of linear momentum )? Doesn't make any sense.

But hell... The first two are done exactly for the game to be playable.
So is the shoot from eye thing.

You still keep thinking shooting from eye is more playable perhaps by thinking that it is less realistic, hence more playable, this is incorrect. We don't want people to aim by pixel, that's not fun. People should aim by skill, not by learning to aim like an aimbot. Aim does need to be made harder than this as otherwise there is too much of an advantage to someone firing rather than someone running.

Waterlaz wrote:It makes _all_ aspects of the game less enjoyable.

For you perhaps but don't apply that assumption to everyone else.

People should aim by skill, not by learning to aim like an aimbot.

Wether you like it or nor " learning to aim like an aimbot" _IS_ "aim by skill" by definition of the word "skill".

Aim does need to be made harder than this as otherwise there is too much of an advantage to someone firing rather than someone running

If you will be standing at the same spot and not moving you will be killed like....<insert your favorite insult here>.
And this has nothing to do woth shoot from eye being enabled or not.

Waterlaz wrote:Wether you like it or nor " learning to aim like an aimbot" _IS_ "aim by skill" by definition of the word "skill".

No, that is not. An aim bot will just shoot at what is under the crosshair, that's a stupid way to aim as even a computer can do that. A skilled way to aim is predicting what your opponents next move is and shooting where he will be, not where he is now. This encourages use of non-hitscan weapons which actually require skill to make use of splash damage or detonation.

Ok. But this has nothing to do with shoot from eye...

Mr. Bougo wrote:Green, the problem is not realism, but having weapon models in a player's hands does not make any sense if projectiles shoot out of the player's face.

To you and all the others from "the other side": I suppose you should now contact the admins of the following mods:

- Quake 4 Max (not sure whether vanilla Q4 does it from eye too)
- Q3 (yes, it's shootfromeyes in vanilla Quake3)
- UT Comp (not sure whether vanilla UT does it from eye too)
- Warsow (vanilla)

to fix their games then, as they are obviously doing it wrong. No sane person would play a game this way where projectiles come out of the eye


OHHH ... wait

DivVerents main point is that shooting-from-the-eye is an UNCLEAN solution.. the hit is NOT the same as what is drawn on the screen in Q3 and most of those other games. While i see its fun to hide and have 2mm to shoot out somewere, the fact that the shot will be drawn from the gun, sometimes right through a wall is UGLY, WRONG compared to how the 'damage-path' and will help speculations about cheats. Not to mention that doing two traces (one for the damage path and one for the drawn one) will raise cpu load. I think shoot from eye will just help campers.. for most other situations the current 'correct' way will make NO difference at all.
Really, why is there a need to debate a freaking topic that will only matter in 0.5% of the playtime?
http://bikeshed.com/ read this and (re)consider.. you are wasting time here (not just your own but also time from one of the main contributors to Nexuiz, for a feature that will hardly change your style of playing,

And honestly, we should not care about other games too much.. fine they have set a certain default, but is it worth following?!? Its like this in Nexuiz since version 1.0 thats.. omg way to much time gone by to even think about it. There are still nice fights done. WHAT IS THE FREAKING BENEFIT of changing the current behavoir? A few people that think quake is god and every game should copy it will be happy and silent? Will you frag more people? in shorter time? A few more shots will be possible then.. a few more.. play with g_shoot_from_center on ladder servers and you get almost the same behavoir in a much cleaner way! There.. do it.. any further question? Are you done wasting time?

And back to the topic.. The current default makes sense, the guns are ordered like on every other shooter too, on the number keys. I also think a lot of other games use the same settings for ctrl/shift as in Nexuiz. At least i know people looked at other games when doing those defaults. And other stuff like dropping guns was copied from the CS keyconfig, i guess one of the games were this feature is really used. I don't think there is much sense in trying to change the current defaults. People that have their own idea about how keys should be configured have they configs already.
And WASD is used. WASD is an other prime example of freaking bad defaults people feel like to follow. If anything then ESDF is more logical as you do not need to move your hand off the typist position.

It would be nice to have a simple interface to select several predefined configs (including the current keys, maybe ESDF, TFGH (tribes) and the numberpad) That will make much more sense and should not be that hard to code.. Why not create a feature tracker on SF and point some of the people regulary asking 'for work' in the 'NEED developers' thread to it?

Good post esteel, also the link to the bikeshed issue was interesting to read

Just to make my personal post from above clear: I was trolling there intionally, of course . The thing is: I do also not want shooting from eyes the be the default of the game. The current default for me is just fine. What I merely want is a better technical solution to the shooting from eye problem (which CAN be used on ladder servers by choice, and thats sufficient imo). Current shooting from eye has two problems:
- Nexgun beam is invisible when standing still
- Rockets and other particle trails already spawn in your face, that looks ugly

I'm trying to solve this, I talked to divVerent and we came up with these approaches:

- add a mindistance keyword to the effectinfo.txt to the particle trail effects, so that e.g. rockets and other trails aren't drawn immediately, but after they are like 50 QUs or more away from my face (I contacted a guy from the "we need more devs" thread, maybe he can do it, as I can't do that myself, and divVerent doesn't care even a little, as he clearly stated, and I don't blame him - developing features is based on the personal opinion and the fun that comes from developing it)

- give the client the possibility to move the weapon to the right as a clientside preference (option also in menu, e.g.: weapon position: "same as server", "force right"). This way one could vote for shootfromeyes, but the gun is moved to the right due to the clients preference, and this way we can have the nexgun beam drawn from this right side as well. DivVerent stated that this was the only way, because in this case the CLIENT decides that he wants the "suckage" of the view rather than having a proper view-presentation (view is broken as projectiles come from eye and not the wpn's position, and also the nexgun beam can sometimes go through edges of the map). As a technical side-note: divVerent said that in the long run this should be done really client-side (networking the weapon-entity as CSQC entity, but I don't have enough knowledge to do that, maybe he will do it some time, he said there were other good reasons to eventually do that anyway), but for now it could be done using the pseudo-clientside mode (customizeentityforclient stuff)

So I'll try to code something like this, but my time is really very limited these days.

Also, I think that all guys here that are against shooting from eyes have not really clue why the other party wants it so bad. The reason is not because other games have it. It's just that these other games have it because THEIR playerbase also wanted it - so, what is it?: when playing competitively, having a difficult match against an equally strong opponent where every small move counts can easily be fucked up by exactly such a moment, where you didn't think of the handicap the game put on you that you have to move really towards the edge (to a degree that you almost slip off it) just to be able to shoot a rocket downwards. A good example is aggressor when you are on the platform where the armor and hagar are next to each other, and you want to shoot down to the rocketlauncher-platform. Shooting in your foot happens often there, and it's just annoying, even when that's not happening so often. But when that happens in an important moment of a game, it just sucks.

Why not make the crosshair graphics indicate in some way whether the end point on screen can actually be hit by the gun? E.g. grey out the crosshair if the target can't be reached from the shot origin.

divVerent wrote:Why not make the crosshair graphics indicate in some way whether the end point on screen can actually be hit by the gun? E.g. grey out the crosshair if the target can't be reached from the shot origin.

I don't know any shooter doing this, but this is great idea

Please, a laser pointer! And it has to be absolutely realistic. It has to become smaller with the distance so that no1 sees it anymore then. And it has to be default

No, please, not.

It is now in svn.

crosshair_hittest 1

If the shot wouldn't hit the crosshair point, the crosshair gets blurred.

Happens even when shooting from eye, because rocket launcher and seeker projectiles have a thickness, and this may get "stuck" somewhere on the path to the crosshair point.

GreEn`mArine wrote:Please, a laser pointer! And it has to be absolutely realistic. It has to become smaller with the distance so that no1 sees it anymore then. And it has to be default

No, please, not.

To be honest, I think this is a very interesting idea
It would be very accurate.

divVerent wrote:It is now in svn.

crosshair_hittest 1

If the shot wouldn't hit the crosshair point, the crosshair gets blurred.

Happens even when shooting from eye, because rocket launcher and seeker projectiles have a thickness, and this may get "stuck" somewhere on the path to the crosshair point.

Tested it, very nice.

Some other improvement ideas for the default mode:

what about making the Nex always shoot from the eye when zoomed? The camping rifle already does that.

Rationale behind this idea is that when zoomed, you don't see the gun, so the wrong shot origin looks okay.

It would be good.

But I still think every weapon should be shootfromeye, especially the ballistics like CR and MG, because intuitively you project trajectory from your point of view, not from where weapon is, which leads to "wtf new mg is so useless".

But you don't want the rocket to spawn right in your face, do you?

What's the definition of 'zoomed in', i.e. I assume it's not fov based right? As some people use fov (like me) and using that it can be circumvented easily (i.e. abused and create cheats based on that).
But I assume you, if anyone, would already know this anyway.

Having the zoom button pressed (or activated via nexgun secondary..)

esteel wrote:Having the zoom button pressed (or activated via nexgun secondary..)

Yes I knew that Wondered if that uses fov type thing as well. If zoom speed is terminated it looks exactly like fov zoom, but I suppose this function is a bit more complicated.

you can configure the zoom speed.. just set it to -1 which means instant zoom if thats what you are missing. Really no need to use zoom scripts anymore

I think most settings in the config are the same than on any usual game these days. About binds, I actually think they could need some color... for e.g. armor and heahlt status.

What is the floating crosshair option cvar, I want to use it, sounds cool .
I'll pwn alpha that way.
Then I will be the alpha.

esteel wrote:you can configure the zoom speed.. just set it to -1 which means instant zoom if thats what you are missing. Really no need to use zoom scripts anymore

I still use my zoom script from 2006 xD