make radar fully zoomed out and disable rotation by default
Its much more usable that way imho

for discussion, keep in mind its not about what you like, but what would be best for all players that just started playing nexuiz and dont know/ dont want change their radar settings.

after few onslaught matches I noticed that many players dont know that minimap will zoom out whey they zoom in, and wander clueless till I tell them that M button show nice big map that doesnt rotate

Morphed wrote:for discussion, keep in mind its not about what you like, but what would be best for all players that just started playing nexuiz and dont know/ dont want change their radar settings.

Emphasizing this. I once heard a developer say they'd never want to include a race map they themselves could not complete. I think that is RIDICULOUS and hurts the game.


Back on topic, I think that's a great idea morphed.

Morphed wrote:make radar fully zoomed out

Necessary level of zoom depends on map...
As for rotation, I agree with you.

I learned about the view zoom = map zoom feature pretty quickly actually, without hearing about it or looking it up in the manual or such. So I think it is already really intuitive enough that players won't have trouble finding it.

However, keeping it zoomed out always might be more useful anyways though. Could be worth some testing.

[-z-] wrote:Emphasizing this. I once heard a developer say they'd never want to include a race map they themselves could not complete. I think that is RIDICULOUS and hurts the game.

Couldn't disagree more, the game is supposed to be a "simple" FPS not a "you need to know insanely pointlessly complicated movement techniques just to complete a level" FPS. I think the devs are on the right track, caring about making a game that is just in general fun and balanced for alot of people, regardless of whether or not they've spent 10 years learning how to best exploit the physics bugs of quake 1.

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[rant]
Alternatively, the "Race" gametype could simply be renamed to the "Complete This Shit" (CTS) gametype, so that folks know ahead of time that it isn't about how fast you are relative to other players, but how much you enjoy the pain of dying in the same trap door or gap between floating platforms, over and over and over and over. Or always coming up a few seconds short of the fixed qualification time, again and again and again.
[/rant]

Quake tricks were made easier to perform on Nexuiz and have logical rationale (except maybe ramp jump???).

This is a matter of taste, and I consider the radar more useful if it actually focuses on where YOU are. It then helps most with e.g. choosing paths protected by team mates. So in CTF, not zoomed out is better. In Onslaught however, I do see that a fully zoomed out map will be better. So the question is - do we want to optimize Nexuiz for a game mode people already know and like, or for some weird new thing that maybe will never catch on because not many are even able to make maps for it? Will we try to ride the Onslaught train - which may lead to the top, or to hell - or will we stay on the stable CTF track? For CTF maps, I consider rotation MUCH better, as it typically has the bases positioned much more intuitively. Otherwise, on some CTF maps, red is top, on some, red is on the right, etc. I find this very irritating. If we didn't have to support hundreds of old maps, we could simply decide that any new maps shall have the red base at the top and the blue base at the bottom of the 2D map, and any map that does not follow this will not be played.

And I am the developer who z hates so much that agrees with Flying Steel. Flying Steel, when in two months Nexuiz will be a totally unenjoyable game for you because it's too hard for the average person - I am the guy who tried to support your points but was overruled by PHBs like z.

And indeed, the right path is TESTING that, and not demanding right away.

As for the race level - yes, 33.3 seconds was a mistake. It is 36 seconds now, can you try it? Maybe it should even be 40.

Morphed wrote:make radar fully zoomed out and disable rotation by default
Its much more usable that way imho

for discussion, keep in mind its not about what you like, but what would be best for all players that just started playing nexuiz and dont know/ dont want change their radar settings.

after few onslaught matches I noticed that many players dont know that minimap will zoom out whey they zoom in, and wander clueless till I tell them that M button show nice big map that doesnt rotate

not quite more usable that way. its more of a personal preference thing. just fix the radar zoom code to zoom out on button.up [i think is fixed in svn.] have you tried my func_radar beta code?

Is radar rotation controllable through some cvar ?

Sure thing: cl_teamradar_rotate toggles through the different settings (4 orientations plus aligned to the player)

And, morphed, change cl_teamradar_zoommode, if you prefer it unzoomed.

divVerent wrote:And I am the developer who z hates so much that agrees with Flying Steel. Flying Steel, when in two months Nexuiz will be a totally unenjoyable game for you because it's too hard for the average person - I am the guy who tried to support your points but was overruled by PHBs like z.

I think the more new features are added to the game, the more a wider fanbase will be attracted to Nexuiz, changing the politics of the community. It seems to me this shift might already be well under way.

As for the race level - yes, 33.3 seconds was a mistake. It is 36 seconds now, can you try it? Maybe it should even be 40.

Yes I was able to get in some runs at 36 seconds using laser and hopping (and the speedway near the end). I have played Nexuiz semi-regularly since right after the 2.3 release.

40 seconds might be good for new folks considering there's no bots in race they can watch and learn from, and considering this is the only gametype where the knowledge or 'trick' of how to beat it isn't really provided in the campaign.

If at some point in the future, the bot code can handle Race somewhat effectively, I think removing the qualifying time completely would be greatly preferable.

Alien wrote:Quake tricks were made easier to perform on Nexuiz and have logical rationale (except maybe ramp jump???).

I would be very, very interested if you could tell me the logical rationale behind the "strafe jump"?

From docs/basics:

Nexuiz does not need you to do this with strange key combinations or even with circular movements of the mouse - trying to do these will generally make you slower. The only time that strafe-jumping (holding one of the strafe-keys while jumping) is useful is for the very first jump you make. This can increase your jump speed a little - although not by much and its complicated to learn.

Alien wrote:From docs/basics:

Nexuiz does not need you to do this with strange key combinations or even with circular movements of the mouse - trying to do these will generally make you slower. The only time that strafe-jumping (holding one of the strafe-keys while jumping) is useful is for the very first jump you make. This can increase your jump speed a little - although not by much and its complicated to learn.

Unfortunately the first jump is usually what determines if you make it to a platform or land in the drink. Unless it would just take alot of physics reworking effort to be accomplished it should really be removed as an exploitable bug.

Flying Steel wrote:

Alien wrote:From docs/basics:

Nexuiz does not need you to do this with strange key combinations or even with circular movements of the mouse - trying to do these will generally make you slower. The only time that strafe-jumping (holding one of the strafe-keys while jumping) is useful is for the very first jump you make. This can increase your jump speed a little - although not by much and its complicated to learn.

Unfortunately the first jump is usually what determines if you make it to a platform or land in the drink. Unless it would just take alot of physics reworking effort to be accomplished it should really be removed as an exploitable bug.

It would break trick jump maps for perhaps no benifit.
We shouldn't break people's maps I think.

tundramagi wrote:It would break trick jump maps for perhaps no benifit.

I wouldn't think so, since apparently it is pretty easy to use another one of the physics presets on different servers/games. Alot of the servers with those sorts of maps I believe run more liberal trick physics settings anyway.

I only mean default Nexuiz.

No, strafing does not gain any additional speed more than simple bunnyhoping and I doubt that the first jump + strafe part is even relevant with current physics. Div could elaborate more. Btw, I have never seen a video where people use q3 or qw stafejumping movement to start the jump in nexuiz.

Alien wrote:No, strafing does not gain any additional speed more than simple bunnyhoping and I doubt that the first jump + strafe part is even relevant with current physics.

If that's the case then now I'm liking the new physics even more.

Div could elaborate more. Btw, I have never seen a video where people use q3 or qw stafejumping movement to start the jump in nexuiz.

I saw such a video after the release of 2.5 on this forum, can't remember where exactly now.

Also stumbed on a server running that space race map with the long winding trail of platforms where you jump from one to the next. You need to strafe jump to make at least the first platform. The only guy there who could make the jump was strafe jumping (as he told me when I asked how he was making it) and had a much better trajectory than I could get, making the platfrom many times. So if it isn't very useful in default, then some other physics settings were being used.

we went from talking about the radar to race? strafejumping on first jump doesn't make any difference, however there are the other physics configs and i clear alot of the race maps using the g_doublejump cvar under adv settings.

divVerent wrote:As for the race level - yes, 33.3 seconds was a mistake. It is 36 seconds now, can you try it? Maybe it should even be 40.

I did the 33.3 seconds on my first try. Was following the advice to get and use the mortar behind you really too hard for some people?

It probably was played on cpma physics which were introduced into nexuiz recently. However, these are not default.

It can be done without mortar in time even when played by sluggish player like me.

Flying Steel wrote:

[-z-] wrote:Emphasizing this. I once heard a developer say they'd never want to include a race map they themselves could not complete. I think that is RIDICULOUS and hurts the game.

Couldn't disagree more, the game is supposed to be a "simple" FPS not a "you need to know insanely pointlessly complicated movement techniques just to complete a level" FPS. I think the devs are on the right track, caring about making a game that is just in general fun and balanced for alot of people, regardless of whether or not they've spent 10 years learning how to best exploit the physics bugs of quake 1.

Couldn't disagree more with you, just because someone can't complete a map does not mean that other's can't!

It's all about different skill-levels, nexuiz seems to go down the route that targets newbies/less skilled players, but hurts top-end players.

One thing I'd like to ask for the radar: differently colored self arrow. I find it sometimes realy hard to find myself on the minimap.

k0jak wrote:Couldn't disagree more with you, just because someone can't complete a map does not mean that other's can't!

There's a --big-- difference between not being able to complete a map and not completing the map before someone else. A Race map, as the name implies, should be more about the later. Unless its an 'user' map of course.

It's all about different skill-levels, nexuiz seems to go down the route that targets newbies/less skilled players, but hurts top-end players.

I haven't really noticed any evidence of that, could you be more specific? It seems like the game leaves plenty of room for top-end players to be edged out by even more top-end players.