As the weapon system will be totally different in new releases (which I already hate tbh, but that's another matter), I think this might be a good opportunity to redefine ammo system too, at least for the Nex.
One of the main reasons imho why the Nex is soo overpowered, is because it shares the same ammo with 3 other weapons - Crylink, Electro, HLAC. This means if you pick up ammo for those weapons, or the weapons alone, you get ammo, so it's very easy to stack up ammo, and it's cheap to use.

My proposal is to add another ammo type for the Nex. In the Quake series, where the Railgun stands for the same purpose ammo is very scare for the weapon, you can't have nearly infinite shots, ammo count is limited in relation the damage it can do. Realy, ask yourselfs, in case you didn't camp, when was the last time you've ran out of ammo for the Nex?

I realise adding a new ammo type would break all maps stock and third party, and also it'll be a huge work to migrate them, the code needs to be written, a good looking model needs to be created etc. etc... but I offer my services for the work: I can take my part, I know how to map, maybe I know a little bit about balanced item placement (and also, I'm not afraid to ask better players for advice), so in case this idea goes through, I'm here to migrate ALL stock maps and the popular third party ones too. (think about it, this is a one in a lifetime offering, you can't miss the opportunity ).

Advices, ideas, cultivated discussion of the topic is welcomed.

I support this idea completely.

yarr, I support this, so I does.

Meh, this seems like a messy solution.

Basically it is enabling the Nex gun to remain an imbalanced "Uber" weapon because its ammo is limited while all the other weapons have to play by the normal rules. No other weapon gets this kind of special treatment (shotgun included, since its actually underpowered).

IMO, better solutions would be:

1) Just make it do less damage until it becomes balanced, maybe between 80-100 damage if need be.

2) Make it consume more cell ammo, like 10.

3) Accept that the Rifle is just better balanced to be the sniper weapon with its head shot damage and ability to shoot through walls. Then make it look like a railgun and call / think of the Nex as a particle beam battle rifle instead.

4) Just let 2.6 turn the Nex into an uber assault/battle rifle instead of an uber sniper rifle so that it consumes more ammo but remains fierce. Or port over the 2.6 Nex into whatever balance mod you prefer.

You seem to miss one point there Flying. If one where to increase Nex ammo consumption all the other weapons that uses the same ammo would be affected, the other weapons shouldn't have to suffer because of Nex.
Besides, "messy" solution or not, if Brutail offered to do this then might as well give it a shot. Not like you would do the work and it wouldn't affect you whatsoever.
People have in the past suggested a separate ammo for the Nex, but there was no one that would volunteer to do the work, now that someone has come fourth one shouldn't try to beat it down.

Hm... let's not get cocky on eachother (although I agree with ai )

Also, I totally dislike the idea of nerfing the nex. I don't have anything against it's damage on one hit. It was ment to be a powerful weapon, so let it be a powerful weapon!
My problem is the fact that once you get your hands on it, you can spam with it, because you have nearly endless ammo suply.

I don't want to put a stick in everyone's spokes, it just seems like this grazes the problem without actually killing it.

No other weapon becomes imbalancingly overpowered when you have a lot of ammo for it, except for the Nex. Which means that for however long or short a while you have it for, you have a distinct advantage over everyone else, which no other weapon provides in 2.5 balance, only quad damage (which is at least time limited). Back in 2.3, the Nex shared the power with the RL and MG, forming a triumvirate of "heavy" weapons that were more powerful and desired than the rest. But this isn't the case anymore, all weapons are being balanced to be equally useful and powerful, with the Nex being the only weapon left that is still a little overpowered.

Plus if it's ammo is less common then we won't get to use it as much, and it is fun to use despite the remaining imbalance.

So IMO, I'd rather see something like a 100 damage, 2 second refire Nex than a new ammo type.


Or if you want to play with ammo types, maybe:

1) Make the Nex use Ballistic ammo. It's more rare and all ballistic weapons share the Nex' hitscan factor that is overpowering on the new open terrain maps (which usually neglect ballistic weapons as a result). This also makes sense because a railgun is a ballistic weapon, not a particle or directed energy weapon.

2) Get rid of general purpose ammo. Each weapon uses its own kind of ammo that can only be acquired by picking up that weapon again. A lot of games do it this way and it gives mappers control over every weapon and its ammo supply precisely. Besides, how does being able to use mortar ammo in a rocket launcher but not in an electro make the game better in any way?

This second idea wasn't as much of an option before because it'd require an overhaul of all the maps, but if that is a price willing to be paid then this might make more sense now.

Just because most maps wave to much ammo don't mean balancing tough ammo availability is bad. And 2s refire sounds like a crappy deal. in numbers its 50 dps, machine gun for example does 150 dps. (2.5.2). The nexgun is already castrated enough; 100 dmg over 1.5s is a measly 66.7 dps.

Ballistic and newtonian trajectories are things that sound kool and feel like shit in game. its supposed to be fun to play, not a lecture in how hard it is to aim in reality. If you don't want your open map to be dominated by the nexgun, don't put it there.

The reason for nexuiz not having more ammo types are (iirc) that Vermeulen wanted it this way. I have no idea why. Personally im all for more ammo types.

On a side note, this discussion may be preddy pointless since it looks like 2.6 will change the nexgun to some lame shock rifle like thing.

Although I totally support C.Brutail's idea and really appreciate the offer to adapt the maps to a new ammo type for the nex, I fear that tZork is right. In my opinion the weapon balance in 2.5.1 only needed rebalancing regarding the nex and I believe that a new ammo type might have done the job just well. But since I read now on varius occasions that 2.6 balancing will be completely different and that the nex will be reduced to some kind of shock rifle, I do not see the point in spending so much effort in redoing the maps.

On a side note, has anyone thought about the nex weapon being (supposedly) one of the most powerful weapons in Nexuiz, because the name of the game derives from this weapon? Might be historically other way round though, but to me this was always some sort of connection. Just a thought. I never liked UT's shock rifle...

I can't say if I will like the new balance in 2.6, but I will get used to it, I suppose. And if not, who cares, anyway?

Not sure abt its power being derived from its namesake, the game. But ever since 1.0 its got more and more neutered. In 1.0 it did 200 dmg with a 1s refire (mind you it was lots harder to aim with back then)

I really don't like this actually.... As the only changes MY balance does is lower damage and force based on distance. But this is something that can't be controlled by a cvar, so again-- Very against it. Also, my balance uses 6 ammo per shot..... With a start of 90 damage and a halflife of 1500qu, this is perfectly fair damage-wise. Other problems with this idea: Fitting new ammo on the HUD--- As we would need an ENTIRELY new ammo, JUST for the Nex.

I instead propose what my balance does.... Cap ammo to a maximum value, and use more ammo for the Nex... Also, to prevent camping, make the Nex do less damage over distance -- This REALLY helps... Not only is this far easier to accomplish, it does the job in a better way. LordHavoc used some of that with his balance for 2.6, so I don't see a problem at all here.

P.S.: If you want to try my balance, exec balanceSamual.cfg in latest SVN... (2.5.2 has an outdated one, so don't use that)

no i dont think its a good idea to make a new ammo... because the gameplay would be suffer by doing this much people already dislike the new physics so making for each weapon a specific amm wouldnt be good you can increase the ammo per shot , so PLEASE NO NEW AMMOTYPE !
its not bad that the nex shares the ammo with the other because you dont shoot with Crylink, Electro, HLAC and Nex at the same time in ut99 every weapon has a own ammo type but in this game its not bad because its not so much an jump and run shooter as nexuiz and the slogan is: simple, fast, intense and completly free, or?
nex would be slower and the simpleness would be decreased...

so my solution for all... more the nex-ammo lovers: making the ammo as a seperate mutator would be the best for all

so mutator tick-box:

(O) noramal
[O] nex seperate ammo
[O] x seperate ammo
[O] x seperate ammo
[O] x seperate ammo
...
(O) each weapon seperate ammo
(O) ammo regenerates automaticly

so you can choose it

from the [O] you can choose more then 1, the (O) you can choose 1 and no from the pther (x wwould be choosen and o unchoosen or whatelse...)

but maybe make a seperate ammo for the super weapons (hook, fireball, porto)

lg,
Sven

Also, to prevent camping, make the Nex do less damage over distance -- This REALLY helps

Imho this destroys the purpose of the gun itself.
Don't get me wrong, I'm perfetly ok with the damage that the Nex does, and I like the whole 2.5.2 weapon balance (with the hotfixes ofc.) as they are.
I just thought there were times when lot people complained about the weapon. I've just proposed a different solution next to nerfing / change weapon behavior.

C.Brutail wrote:

Also, to prevent camping, make the Nex do less damage over distance -- This REALLY helps

Imho this destroys the purpose of the gun itself.

You could also have it do more damage over distance, with the code that's already in place in 2.5.2 I believe, using the console or configuration file.

Flying Steel wrote:(shotgun included, since its actually underpowered).

Shotgun is NOT underpowered in 2.5.2. It's actually overpowered for being a weapon that you start with. Spawn frags are a common thing in ctf and 1v1 matches with 2.5.2 shotgun, probably because of the improved antilag.

And I'm completely for having separate ammo for nex. Nex is way overused and does a lot of damage for a simple shot, and because the delay for a weapon switch from nex (after being shot) to another weapon is so short, you can do a ton amount of damage within a short amount of time. With nex ammo, I think you can limit this. With nex ammo on duel maps for example, if you wanted to whore the nex with other weapon combos, you would have to control the ammo on that map, instead of picking up an electro or crylink. In ctf, you would have to be conservative of nex ammo if you wanted to nex whore all match as well.

PCLizard wrote:Shotgun is NOT underpowered in 2.5.2.

2.5.2 balancing is considered a mistake that will soon be fixed. Basically the ballistic weapons were made hitscan again while their damage values remained the same or actually increased. So they became more accurate without having to sacrifice in another department, making most of them overpowered. Except for the shotgun, I say.

It's actually overpowered for being a weapon that you start with.

I see no sense in such a qualification. There's no reason a player who just spawned should be fodder for everyone else because he gets a junk weapon (in addition to no possibility of armor or quad or a good position). That's just boring.


Anyway, this isn't totally relevant, since the shotgun does not have its own ammo type to stop it from dominating the game, as is being proposed on this topic for the Nex. In fact, it isn't really clear at all why it currently is the only weapon with its own ammo type. If it were up to me I would switch it over to using ballistic ammo like the MG and Rifle.

Flying Steel wrote:

PCLizard wrote:Shotgun is NOT underpowered in 2.5.2.

2.5.2 balancing is considered a mistake that will soon be fixed. Basically the ballistic weapons were made hitscan again while their damage values remained the same or actually increased. So they became more accurate without having to sacrifice in another department, making most of them overpowered. Except for the shotgun, I say.

It's actually overpowered for being a weapon that you start with.

I see no sense in such a qualification. There's no reason a player who just spawned should be fodder for everyone else because he gets a junk weapon (in addition to no possibility of armor or quad or a good position). That's just boring.


Anyway, this isn't totally relevant, since the shotgun does not have its own ammo type to stop it from dominating the game, as is being proposed on this topic for the Nex. In fact, it isn't really clear at all why it currently is the only weapon with its own ammo type. If it were up to me I would switch it over to using ballistic ammo like the MG and Rifle.

I see no sense in picking up any other weapon now that the shotgun is much stronger now. You can literally take a fully stacked player down to nothing within seconds after spawning.

Except for the shotgun, I say.

How so?

PCLizard wrote:I see no sense in picking up any other weapon now that the shotgun is much stronger now. You can literally take a fully stacked player down to nothing within seconds after spawning.

By that logic you'd also have to see no point in picking up any weapon after the first.


But most players pick up weapons for two reasons- more versatility and more ammo.

Versatility: The shotgun is a close quarters weapon, which you can't reliably use to win against enemies with medium to long ranged weapons, at those ranges. The shotgun also lacks special uses, like an option for shooting around corners, which can be very useful. Or knocking an enemy around in the air to keep him from escaping and make his movement predictable for easier hits. That's versatility that the shotgun just can't deliver on its own.

(This is a big part of the problem with the Nex by the way, it has incredible range versatility, even though it was supposed to be a sniper gun that's specialized for long range. That in turn is a big part of why adjusting its ammo in various ways can't fix it.)

Ammo: Sadly, ammo is what makes the shotgun impossible to balance one way or the other. It simply never runs out of ammo. But if it did run out after say 8 shots, like the Rifle does, you might find that the 2.5.2 shotgun no longer feels overpowered to you. Because then you would have to pick up more ammo after the first one or two engagements, or less for longer ranged engagements.

IMO, the shotgun and nex should both be balanced to be on the same level as the other weapons, independently of ammo consumption. And then their ammo consumption should be balanced separately based primarily on their refire. They are the only remaining ammo consuming weapons that are noticeably imbalanced versus the rest.

Except for the shotgun, I say.

How so?

The shotgun should be as strong as any other weapon, otherwise you probably won't survive in a serious match unless you are lucky enough to get close to a balanced weapon before someone finds you. Because that someone will have an effective weapon, plus stacked hit points and maybe a good location or momentum or quad power.

Having a balanced weapon but with the usual limited ammo would give you a fighting chance to get to some of your own armor/health/weapons/ammo/quad.

I support a new ammo type for the nex. My guess is the new type of ammo would be rails.

Flying Steel wrote:

PCLizard wrote:Shotgun is NOT underpowered in 2.5.2.

2.5.2 balancing is considered a mistake that will soon be fixed. Basically the ballistic weapons were made hitscan again while their damage values remained the same or actually increased. So they became more accurate without having to sacrifice in another department, making most of them overpowered. Except for the shotgun, I say.

It's actually overpowered for being a weapon that you start with.

I see no sense in such a qualification. There's no reason a player who just spawned should be fodder for everyone else because he gets a junk weapon (in addition to no possibility of armor or quad or a good position). That's just boring.


Anyway, this isn't totally relevant, since the shotgun does not have its own ammo type to stop it from dominating the game, as is being proposed on this topic for the Nex. In fact, it isn't really clear at all why it currently is the only weapon with its own ammo type. If it were up to me I would switch it over to using ballistic ammo like the MG and Rifle.

Oh god not this shit again, the current shotgun is just right in my opinion. It may be a starter weapon, but this Nexuiz's enforcer and it's supposed to do a good job of keeping you alive, though it's rarely the best weapon to use for most situations in spite being a good all-around-weapon.

lold @ shotgun underpowered too even in the 2.5.3 balance its a damn strong starting weapon.

Flying Steel wrote:The shotgun should be as strong as any other weapon, otherwise you probably won't survive in a serious match unless you are lucky enough to get close to a balanced weapon before someone finds you.

Cool, I don't even have to pick up any weapons because I start with a weapon as strong as any other, this is really fun, especially on a 8 playered DM match on warfare right? Minsta DM with shotgun ftw.



Anyways back to the topic: I completely support the idea of seperate nex-ammo type. When you write "onoz, no seperate ammo type, make it damage less, consume more ammo, make it range dependant, add more refire", you shouldnt only think in wide-open (bad) maps like greatwall and facing, where camping is still issue. The whole point of seperate ammo that it allows the mapper to decide where and how much camping he wants to allow on his maps: its also true for the stock closed maps too where nex is still damn strong, and a range dependant damage wouldnt make too much change.
The problem cant be solved so that we keep on nerfing and nerfing and nerfing and nerfing the weapon: this has been the tendency in the past 2-3 years, the dps of nex has been technically quartered, and the problem is still the same. There IS a real demand on a nex-like "sniping pwnzor weapon", especially for new players: we shouldnt remove this feature of the game, just limit it. Nexuiz is doing something like BFG would eat rocket ammo in quake (without ammo-stack limit), of course there are balance issues.

Talking about ammo: I would also recommend is to limit the amount of the maximum pickable ammo, I dont say it should be way too low, just permit people to stack up with 500 ammo at their base before they lead the attack. Ammo management is still not part of the game... It would also encourage the usage of less popular weapons, for example you have mortar and crylink, and you would run out of rocket ammo (that would happen a little more) you would just have to switch back to crylink more often.
Another benefit would be that on populated maps people wouldnt be able to collect selfishly all the weapons (for ammo supply) before teammates have any chance to pick it up. Im thinking on something like 100-100 cell and rocket limit and 300 on machinegun (so ~the amount of 1 weapon + 3 ammo boxes), so nothing way too drastical, but it would really improve playability in my opinion. Another reason: if nex would have seperate ammo, people would still be able to stack up with it by spending 2 minutes on a pickup place.

FraNcoTirAdoR wrote:lold @ shotgun underpowered too even in the 2.5.3 balance its a damn strong starting weapon.

Actually I was talking about the 2.5.3 shotgun, not 2.5.2, since the later is already on the way out.

Cool, I don't even have to pick up any weapons because I start with a weapon as strong as any other, this is really fun, especially on a 8 playered DM match on warfare right? Minsta DM with shotgun ftw.

Except that you'd run out of ammo very quickly, so unless you're really good with the laser. . .


Anyway, I didn't mean for this to go so far off topic. This thread is about the Nex having its own ammo type.

Flying Steel wrote:Except that you'd run out of ammo very quickly, so unless you're really good with the laser. . .

Lool. Some people say you never run out of ammo for Shotgun and you're saying you run out of it quickly. Who's right?
Me personally, don't run out of ammo that often, it happens but it should happen as well just like any other weapon. I also do pickup shotgun ammo from time to time, if you're close to run out of ammo that's what one do.

ai wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:Except that you'd run out of ammo very quickly, so unless you're really good with the laser. . .

Lool. Some people say you never run out of ammo for Shotgun and you're saying you run out of it quickly.

No I'm saying you should run out of ammo very quickly with a balanced shotgun. Instead you never run out of shotgun ammo with the current shotgun like I said a few posts ago:

Flying Steel wrote:Ammo: Sadly, ammo is what makes the shotgun impossible to balance one way or the other. It simply never runs out of ammo.

To summarize you have:

2.5.3 Shotgun. Underpowered, Basically Unlimited Ammo.

2.6 Shotgun. Balanced Power or Slightly Underpowered, Too Much Ammo.

My Shotgun. Balanced Power, Balanced Limited Ammo


Ideally, I think your starting weapon should be a random weapon each time with minimal ammo, and then the shotgun should be made a pickup weapon. Basically you give freshly spawned players a real weapon but only enough ammo to kill someone and then take his gun/ammo.

Flying Steel wrote:Ideally, I think your starting weapon should be a random weapon each time with minimal ammo, and then the shotgun should be made a pickup weapon. Basically you give freshly spawned players a real weapon but only enough ammo to kill someone and then take his gun/ammo.

Very bad idea. Meaning all competitive gameplay would be thrown out of the window.
But as I said, I do run out of ammo with the shotgun and as a starting weapon it should _not_ be very powerful, which it currently is.

I agree, 2.5.3 shotgun is very strong and usable, and actually I dont remember if i ever ran out of ammo using it.

The random spawning weapon is bad idea, on an open map if someone spawns with nex starts with a huge advantage, he doesnt have to go to the pickup place any more (that for nex should be a voulnerable place) just collect some ammo and he is ready to attack. It removes the weapon control strategies from TDM, 1on1 and DM, 3 "quite" important game mode

FraNcoTirAdoR wrote:The random spawning weapon is bad idea, on an open map if someone spawns with nex starts with a huge advantage, he doesnt have to go to the pickup place any more (that for nex should be a voulnerable place) just collect some ammo and he is ready to attack. It removes the weapon control strategies from TDM, 1on1 and DM, 3 "quite" important game mode

Okay I see what you mean. But what if random starting weapons were paired with each weapon using its own ammo type? So that way whatever advantage you had would only last for one clip (like a kill or two tops).

Another idea- what if your starting weapon was determined by the individual map you were playing on?

The shotgun should be Nexuiz's enforcer. It should have a good amount, but not seemingly unlimited amount of ammo, and should have balanced to slightly underpowered damage and be good for close to medium range.

I am against making the nex use its own ammo. If the map maker put a nex on his map, he should be aware of the consequences. The nex is a weapon made for sniping, it is the only weapon suitable for that purpose (I don't remember the last time I saw a rifle in a map besides eggandbacon). It should be specialized for that, I think. So, leaving the nex ammo/refire alone and making the beam gain damage as it goes along would be the best course of action, I think. That way, close quarter nexing would be discouraged, and the nex would be a sniper weapon, as it was intended to be. If you don't like snipers, then frag them. It's not hard, if you have a cooperative team.

Roanoke wrote:The nex is a weapon made for sniping.

really? lol...

Stop trying to change the nex

It's fine as it is!