I discussed this on IRC when the feature got implemented, and decided to make a vote about it now that it's been on the servers for a while.

In my opinion, ghosting items while they're not there is a feature that can bother players for many reasons. First of all, to me they look ugly and wrong the way they're currently done. Ghost items are also deceiving... I seen many players (including myself) often going for items which are not there before realizing what the low alpha means (I easily fragged someone in Stormkeep yesterday who laser-jumped for the ghosted superhealth). I also don't see why they are so needed... many maps mark item spawns, and if they don't it probably means the mapper wants players to learn item placement by exploring the map, which is actually more fun.

I spoke to people during online matches too, and so far everyone agrees the ghosted items should be turned off or done in another way. Some of the DCC servers have already disabled them.

Anyway, my suggestion is disabling g_ghost_items by default and returning items to how they used to be. To provide a better balance, I'll be posting a quick patch which adds ghosted items to the Create -> Advanced menu so they can be easily enabled if anyone wants them on their server... imo that seems fair.

[EDIT] Posted patch here.

I think turning down the alpha so that they are barely visible would be better than outright removing them.

No... I instead think we should make a client side option to disable them, but keep them enabled by default. I'll code this in fact.

Client-side, please.

Yeah, a client side option would be great. As for just lowering the alpha level, I disagree with that... it would make them almost impossible to see. My idea, if this feature is so wanted, would have been using effects other than just decreasing the alpha of the item, such as:

- Making them shadow items instead of ghost items. In other words, texturing them with a black texture too while they're ghosted, though I'm not sure if that would improve a lot.

- Turning them into particle markers, color / size indicating the item type. So for health, red particles would come out of the spawn spot, for armor green, weapons could be yellow, etc. That would actually look nice, unless the purpose is to show precisely which item that is, not only of which category.

- A small and discrete waypoint could be shown when the player gets close to the spawning point of an item, which could contain a small floating icon of the item. That might look prettier and make more sense than the low alpha system... it could even show the time left until respawn I actually did a mockup of that;

MirceaKitsune wrote:- A small and discrete waypoint could be shown when the player gets close to the spawning point of an item, which could contain a small floating icon of the item. That might look prettier and make more sense than the low alpha system... it could even show the time left until respawn I actually did a mockup of that;

This looks like a very good idea. Especially with the timers.

Yeah, I would actually love it if it were like that But sadly, I heard there's currently no way to make waypoints not show through walls, only show to a player under a certain distance or send the remaining spawn time to the client without exposing the server to being cheatable by hacking. Hope that can be fixed though... I would love to see something like that replacing the current ghost items

Samual wrote:No... I instead think we should make a client side option to disable them, but keep them enabled by default. I'll code this in fact.

I already asked for this a while back, unfortunately I was told it can't be done.

divVerent wrote:

vomit wrote:Is there a way to disable ghost items?

Cannot be done, sorry. Well, could be made a server option, but certainly no client option.

(Just making it a serverside option... will be called g_ghost_items)

MirceaKitsune wrote:Yeah, I would actually love it if it were like that But sadly, I heard there's currently no way to make waypoints not show through walls, only show to a player under a certain distance or send the remaining spawn time to the client without exposing the server to being cheatable by hacking. Hope that can be fixed though... I would love to see something like that replacing the current ghost items

Actually, I think it'd look better if they weren't waypoints, because waypoint markers are the same size no matter how far away they are, which in an open area or open map would mean they'd clutter up your interface, even if they didn't show through walls.

What would be best is if they were a fixed size, so that at a distance you wouldn't see them, but once you got close to the spawn point, you'd see the symbols and timers telling you what and when will spawn there for you.

I'm against timers. What's next, aimbots?

A clientside options to enable/disable and adjust alpha on ghost items can be good.

Offtopic: And an options to enable/disable "simple items" like in Q3 would be nice too, for us with old computers.

Like the client-side disable ghost items idea. Those things and hit sounds (which can be turned off) annoy the hell out of me. I don't really like the idea of timers.

morfar wrote:I'm against timers. What's next, aimbots?

+1 you cant be serious with the timer, it completely destroys the whole point of TDM and duel games, even DM games. Why dont we have a popup chatbox in the bottom left corner, indicating: mega has spawned, also with a robotic announcer on that, and an automatically generated waypoint-line that shows how to pick it up, and a little camera appears on the top right corner that shows the current state so we know when others already took it..... Its damn lame already to show when and where quad spawns, people dont want their screen to look like a christmas tree.

I would also recommend if it cant be coded client side to disable ghost items at least lower the default opacity just a little, its so so so annoying that items distract my attention by their spinning while they are not even there, always giving the feeling from divine "i wanna pick it up".

Its really strange to see that the tendency is going torwards flooding players with tremendous amount of information that they can find out mostly by themselves, I take a very easily possible situation from the current gameplay, and later i will open a topic in this because it because a serious problem:
- Enemy takes our flag, so message pops up
- Flag taken announcer sounds up
- A teammate sends a message on that so another message shows up
- He also attaches his waypoint to show where the flagcarrier
- Indicators show the current position of flags on both side of the screen
- Teammate is running with the opponents flag back to our base so his HP and position appears
- Non existing ghost items are contantly spinning in the edge of our eyes
- Quad is just about to spawn so an indicator also appears on that
- Someone just posted a message to the common chat so it appears too
- New hud displays all our ammo and others stuffs in the bottom of the screen that keeps on changing
- I change weapon so the weaponbar shows up
- Radar is constantly rotating in the top right area of the screen
- You are hit in the same time so damage blur shakes and blurs your screen (yeah its not information but still visibility blocker)

If i would be a completely newbie this would be the point where is would press F10, really. Now imagine timers on weapons, ammoboxes and powerups, too. This is not supporting the display of more information, this is information FLOOD, that noone is interested about but they are constantly pop up, and you cant do anything with it. Its not Ironman FFS We dont need a miracle interface that displays everything around us, it completely ruins playability already that our screen is full of information, and also operates as partial wallhack.



yeah this is how i look sometimes too when my screen is full............

The timers came to mind because, I thought that if waypoints would be an idea and so much info which the player doesn't need is shown either way, it might be fun to show spawn info and other stuff as well. But my idea was only showing a spawn waypoint when the player was close enough, not from any distance, and not wrapping them around the screen when a waypoint is behind you which would indeed look horrible. I also didn't know aimbots and code hacks are still possible and that this might expose Nexuiz to hacks... in that case no.

Flying Steel wrote:Actually, I think it'd look better if they weren't waypoints, because waypoint markers are the same size no matter how far away they are, which in an open area or open map would mean they'd clutter up your interface, even if they didn't show through walls.

What would be best is if they were a fixed size, so that at a distance you wouldn't see them, but once you got close to the spawn point, you'd see the symbols and timers telling you what and when will spawn there for you.

That pretty much sounds like a static particle, or corona. Making it that would fix both the wall hiding problem, the size problem, and the wrapping around the screen when not in your FOV problem. I'm only curious if a corona can be coded to show for specific clients only, so they can be disabled client-side.

If we'd go with sprite indicators without timers, a simple picture of the item with an arrow pointing downward (like in my first mockup image above) could be shown in that location. If anyone agrees to such a thing replacing the low alpha items, I can Photoshop the necessary icons for each item. I can also add the name of the item, so it won't look like a simple sprite

FraNcoTirAdoR wrote:I would also recommend if it cant be coded client side to disable ghost items at least lower the default opacity just a little, its so so so annoying that items distract my attention by their spinning while they are not even there, always giving the feeling from divine "i wanna pick it up".

+1

FraNcoTirAdoR wrote:Its really strange to see that the tendency is going torwards flooding players with tremendous amount of information that they can find out mostly by themselves, I take a very easily possible situation from the current gameplay, and later i will open a topic in this because it because a serious problem:
- Enemy takes our flag, so message pops up
- Flag taken announcer sounds up
- A teammate sends a message on that so another message shows up
- He also attaches his waypoint to show where the flagcarrier
- Indicators show the current position of flags on both side of the screen
- Teammate is running with the opponents flag back to our base so his HP and position appears
- Non existing ghost items are contantly spinning in the edge of our eyes
- Quad is just about to spawn so an indicator also appears on that
- Someone just posted a message to the common chat so it appears too
- New hud displays all our ammo and others stuffs in the bottom of the screen that keeps on changing
- I change weapon so the weaponbar shows up
- You are hit in the same time so damage blur shakes and blurs your screen

I support the flag notifications. Knowing when your flag is stolen or a team mate is carrying the enemy flag is good imo (like a home alarm ). In other shooters a flag indicator also appears next to the carrier's name in the scoreboard, and there are always announcers saying when a flag has been picked up, dropped or returned.

I do however disagree with all ammo being shown in the sbar. I love the new HUD design, but only showing the ammo of the selected weapon was probably better. I never check the other ammo myself... and if more ammo types will ever be added there will be no room in the HUD using the current system.

And damage blur is a nice effect, I'd never want that to go away. It can be disabled from the Effects menu however, so imo it's good like this. Now that I got to that, I'd love to see a watery distortion effect rather than damage blur instead, like in Alien Arena or UT 3

FraNcoTirAdoR wrote:- Indicators show the current position of flags on both side of the screen

This is wrong. They only show where the base is, not the flags. However, they do show where a teammate who has the flag is, which is good IMO so that you can back him up.

But I agree, no more times, that's just stupid and going overboard, whether it's only for close proximity or not.

I agree with more ammo types if ALL weapons then get their own separate ammo type. Don't see why you shouldn't be able to stack up the nex with other weapons if you still can stack up eg. the RL with other weapons. The weapons are apparently supposed to be balanced, so we should treat them equally in this case too then.

I'll code this for the HUD if separate ammo types are added (ammo icons on the left): http://i43.tinypic.com/311wac9.jpg

FraNcoTirAdoR wrote:Its really strange to see that the tendency is going torwards flooding players with tremendous amount of information that they can find out mostly by themselves, I take a very easily possible situation from the current gameplay, and later i will open a topic in this because it because a serious problem:
- Enemy takes our flag, so message pops up
- Flag taken announcer sounds up
- A teammate sends a message on that so another message shows up
- He also attaches his waypoint to show where the flagcarrier
- Indicators show the current position of flags on both side of the screen
- Teammate is running with the opponents flag back to our base so his HP and position appears
- Non existing ghost items are contantly spinning in the edge of our eyes
- Quad is just about to spawn so an indicator also appears on that
- Someone just posted a message to the common chat so it appears too
- New hud displays all our ammo and others stuffs in the bottom of the screen that keeps on changing
- I change weapon so the weaponbar shows up
- Radar is constantly rotating in the top right area of the screen
- You are hit in the same time so damage blur shakes and blurs your screen (yeah its not information but still visibility blocker)

If i would be a completely newbie this would be the point where is would press F10, really. Now imagine timers on weapons, ammoboxes and powerups, too. This is not supporting the display of more information, this is information FLOOD, that noone is interested about but they are constantly pop up, and you cant do anything with it. Its not Ironman FFS We dont need a miracle interface that displays everything around us, it completely ruins playability already that our screen is full of information, and also operates as partial wallhack.


yeah this is how i look sometimes too when my screen is full............

Hahaha, okay I see your point.

But I do like the flag related interface and the mini-map.

FruitieX wrote:I agree with more ammo types if ALL weapons then get their own separate ammo type. Don't see why you shouldn't be able to stack up the nex with other weapons if you still can stack up eg. the RL with other weapons. The weapons are apparently supposed to be balanced, so we should treat them equally in this case too then.

+1000 for this even though it's in the wrong topic.

Yeah, if all weapons would get different ammo that would be the optimal, thats complete control over the gameplay on the map. But i think implementing different ammo for all weapons is just a way too damn gigantic work. All maps should be remade. Seems like Nexuiz 2.6 and above will require an own map repository or sth.

FraNcoTirAdoR wrote:Yeah, if all weapons would get different ammo that would be the optimal, thats complete control over the gameplay on the map. But i think implementing different ammo for all weapons is just a way too damn gigantic work. All maps should be remade. Seems like Nexuiz 2.6 and above will require an own map repository or sth.

An overhaul or a break in compatibility isn't necessarily a bad thing. In this case the ends might justify the means, and it would only need to be done once.

FraNcoTirAdoR wrote:Yeah, if all weapons would get different ammo that would be the optimal, thats complete control over the gameplay on the map. But i think implementing different ammo for all weapons is just a way too damn gigantic work. All maps should be remade. Seems like Nexuiz 2.6 and above will require an own map repository or sth.

I think it would be a mess.. see as example Mircreas mockup screen:

2 Cells -> 2 Electro, 2 Crylink, 2 HLAC, 2 Nex, [2 MinstaNex] .
1 Rockets -> 1 Mortar, 1 Rocket Launcher, 1 Hagar, [1 Fireball] .

= 11 [14] Ammo boxes!

Mirio wrote:= 11 [14] Ammo boxes!

Just get rid of ammo boxes altogether. Then the only way to get ammo for a weapon is to pick up that weapon again. It doesn't get any simpler or cleaner than that.

Explosive Diarrhea wrote:

Samual wrote:No... I instead think we should make a client side option to disable them, but keep them enabled by default. I'll code this in fact.

I already asked for this a while back, unfortunately I was told it can't be done.

divVerent wrote:

vomit wrote:Is there a way to disable ghost items?

Cannot be done, sorry. Well, could be made a server option, but certainly no client option.

(Just making it a serverside option... will be called g_ghost_items)

Indeed, but there are always ways (Tell the client which state the item is in instead of forcing a certain effect on it)

By the way, showing the time of respawn for items is a BIG NO NO... Breaks many things. The main reason we did it for the quad was because we made it random because people were timing it/cheating it.

Right, and for regular items... randomization would be very weird. It's just fun to see armor/health rows respawn one after another.

Somehow we're changing the topic again

Another Idea has came to my mind about the shotgun:

Normal, starter weapon:
Primary fire stays as it is, secondary firemode is a very fast burst mode, sometihng like 2.6 secondary. Only change that you've got less ammo - two / three bursts will eat away all your starter shells.

Super shotgun:
Picable, uses shells. Primary damage is huge (around 100-120 if all pellets hit), very large spread and at least 1.5 sec refire rate. Eats twice as much ammo as normal shotgun's primary.
Secondary fire is a spin-up spin down mode, similar to a chaingun. Wide spread, and eats ammo like hell - if you don't have at least 50 shells, you can't even reach the full spinned up potential. Makes high damage if you can control it.

Shot-chain-gun? how wer talking!

Yeah, and I've chosen the wrong thread

Right, I admit my idea about timers was not all that great. And I agree with normal items having a fixed respawn time while the Shield and Strength are nicer with randoms, but disagree with shield / strength having to popup a waypoint whenever they spawn. But if that was made to avoid giving an advantage to hackers I agree.

As for the ghost items, I'm still curious if anyone wishes to look into coding corona-mapped sprite indicators instead of the low-alpha items, which can be disabled client-side and all. If so I can make the sprites for all items.

Mirio wrote:I think it would be a mess.. see as example Mircreas mockup screen:

2 Cells -> 2 Electro, 2 Crylink, 2 HLAC, 2 Nex, [2 MinstaNex] .
1 Rockets -> 1 Mortar, 1 Rocket Launcher, 1 Hagar, [1 Fireball] .

= 11 [14] Ammo boxes!

As I mentioned, my intention for these indicators is to 1: Have them hidden behind walls, 2: Have them show only when the player is close enough and not over an unlimited distance, 3: Not have them wrap around the screen when they aren't in your field of view like normal waypoints do. So an indicator would appear just like any other entity, only that it's a full bright non-colliding always-facing texture. That way there couldn't be more sprite indicators than the items you can be seeing at a time.

I dont even have the slightest idea whats the point of random weapon and ammo box spawn, for quad okey i mostly understand, but random spawns on items are just completely against every single tactics possible to commit on a map...

FraNcoTirAdoR wrote:I dont even have the slightest idea whats the point of random weapon and ammo box spawn, for quad okey i mostly understand, but random spawns on items are just completely against every single tactics possible to commit on a map...

Dont you know already? We must make Nexuiz n00b friendly by keeping everyone as close as possible to n00bs indefinitely! SCNR

I agree, no sense in random item timers. maybe the super powerupp timer would be better as just a announcer or message, so you'd actuality have to pay attention and know here to go. obviously would break on maps with more then one quad / shiled.. but those are mostly ctf maps and could use the sprite system. One thing with The spites thats quite bad for tea, games is that you know roughly when the enemy will get their quad/shiled in advance.

As for ghosted items on or off by default i don't really care. either way is fine with me. Maybe reducing it to ghost major items would be a way to reduce screen clutter.

So I took a shot at making the ghosted items client side, but I failed for the most part (Couldn't figure out a good way to network the change) -- But still, I think by default having them enabled is better compared to disabled.