I'll do the change today for the ladder, for weapon, health/armor and ammo to 25 seconds. Cheers

Cool great, then it's just down to testing.

<kojn> cause i already have armour and health
<kojn> etc ;D
<atheros> nice
<atheros> I need to by a mic
<kojn> would rather do this with 25 seconds on
<``alpha> kojn
<``alpha> I see it like this:
<``alpha> pro players are pushing devs to implement changes for easier game for them
<``alpha> with 15 seconds weapon respawn I for example could grab a nex while you're far away picking armor, shoot you 1-2 times with it and finish you off with a shotgun
<``alpha> but now if weapon respawns once in 25 seconds
<``alpha> you'd have plenty of time to grab all guns, and grab all hp/armor things on map
<``alpha> leaving lower-level players with NOTHING
<atheros> yea
<``alpha> I am AGAINST 15->25 seconds transition
<atheros> we played once TDM as maD with high respawn time
<``alpha> fuck this, kojn
<atheros> we lost big then
<atheros> we couldn't take a weapon other than electro or hagar
<``alpha> exactly
<``alpha> this change would make strong players stronger and everyone else would suck even more
<atheros> and electro vs nex just doesn't do...
<``alpha> heh
<atheros> exactly
<kojn> alpha
<``alpha> ?
<kojn> one more at pickup
<kojn> ctf
<kojn> needed
<kojn> nai
<kojn> nao
<kojn> add
<kojn> nai
<atheros> lol, too late
<``alpha> to late
<``alpha> gl hf
<kojn> <@``alpha> you'd have plenty of time to grab all guns, and grab all hp/armor things on map
<kojn> <@``alpha> leaving lower-level players with NOTHING
<kojn> then play a team your level in TDM
<kojn> change will be done tonight alpha
<kojn> once me and bundy play
<kojn> vs waldi/prayer

Want to ruin a community? Introduce changes like this!!!

This is what this thread is for. Testing and giving feedback. Don't just talk about this on IRC, point it out on the forums. As for Atheros, I haven't seen him comment on this at all on the forums, so how would we know if people like it or hate it?
Giving examples is also good, about matches and such cause then one would at least know one tried and tested.

again alpha, commenting without really playing with the changes enough.

Ofcourse me, bundy, Lo, waldi etc would rape you in 2v2 with these settings.

I get raped in UT atm vs better clans, cause I am not as good...the point is you can learn from our examples, and then apply it to your own game..I never asked you play us in TDM in those irc comments you pasted, like I said, play players your own skill-level.

I don't know why your whining anyway, you don't even play TDM.



<``alpha> pro players are pushing devs to implement changes for easier game for them

I never asked a developer, I put the thread on here ages ago, i pasted the thread on irc multiple times for people to read and test and comment on the thread, the one's who mainly play commented, and the one's who don't play then see it come again then complain (much like yourself).

I don't expect you to play us in TDM, but you treat me as if im god or something even in CTF. I barely play CTF before last 3 weeks, yes I can frag but that doesnt mean you should single me out in every pickup game, there are players like ai / fisume / players in CTF gamemode who are as good if not better.

If you want to learn give us a chance to show you. (read post comment below)

Also alpha, morfar and ai played against us with these settings, and they do not do bad at all.

Like i tried to explain to you on IRC, bundy will record some games on TeamSpeak (he already did one, but forgot to do the other map which was better).

I will upload these and then make a link to the Teamspeak file AND both our demo pov's this way you can watch and listen to what were saying, and see what were doing, in-game commentary pretty much, surely this will help you (if you ever do decide to play TDM..) become better, and get a better understand how us 'pro?' players are thinking/what we are doing to gain control.

Say what you want, I have outlined your proposal's direct consequences.

alpha wrote:Say what you want, I have outlined your proposal's direct consequences.

Without TESTING.

when will you learn...

Oi there again.
I withdraw my opinion for now. I am no longer pro 25 sec, but I'm also not against it. I need more testing time. I think alpha has a point, and a good one at that. Against a strong player it could increase the gap between the players very much. Where the more experienced player could technically control the whole map and weapons by timing effectively leaving the underdog with only shotgun to try to comeback with.
I'm no longer sure whether 25 secs is a good thing. But I've had some very good games with those settings as well, hence why I'm just withdrawing my opinion until I've tried everything out fully.

It would be great if there could be two/three .cfgs on the test servers (pn.de, delight and such) where you could choose between 3 modes. If there is what are they called (and how do you vote for them :p)?
1. Standard, 15 sec on everything like normal.
2. 25 sec for weapons, items and stuff normal settings.
3. 25 sec for all things.

Would it be possible to do that?
The bottom line is, against strong players matches would get kinda boring for the underdogs running only with shotties and stuff. They'd might even give up as they feel it wouldn't lead anywhere anyway.
This needs serious testing, I'm calling upon all to test these. Even if it's with just random people!

This is my view so far.

How very convenient.

<``alpha> you argue that I oppose your changes without testing
<kojn> alpha there is no server atm with the settings on you douche
<``alpha> but then you say that I can't test it either
<kojn> they got lost when pnde servers went down

So Green makes changes regardless of the fact that no one except your clan and friends (like 5 players? or 10?) of the whole nex community have tested your proposal.

How very convenient.

The WHOLE POINT OF THIS IS FOR MORE COMPETITIVE TDM PLAY.

fighting not over powerups but weapons..competition.

Yes against better players you will get owned more, especially because of the nex for example, if you let us show you how to become a better player then let us do it, stop stopping us straight away, I can't teach you new things if you don't want us to implement a new change.

TDM is about weapon control as much as powerups, it's about timing the most powerul weapons, like in nexuiz for example: Stormkeep, with 25 seconds something like this spawn, try take first nex and powerups, go to second lot of powerup spawns around 19:30 and below try secure them, then go into the nex room, try secure the next nexgun, next one will be around 19:10-18:50 most likely, so you try secure it again and so on, until you start to help give your TEAM better control when timing of the weapons becomes less important if you have a very big frag lead control, but still important if its a close game, frag lead will come from the team with better general control...giving yourself the better weapons. it's a new skill to learn, and will help you in other game-modes how to dominate the opponent.

QW, the main weapon is the RL and the Lightning Gun, the Rocket Launcher is ridiculously powerful and whoever has a better control will sometimes mean they will have a better map control, you split the team into different areas to fight over different parts of the map for it's item and weapons...this is what TDM is.

Now don't give me crap about 'but dominating opponents is unfair' there's always going to be players of different skill level's.

But you don't want to allow a change to let the better players have a more competitive game vs each other, and at the same time allow us to teach you and for you to learn a new element in a FPS game, in how to get better.

You asked me before how do I get so good...by learning such things, why won't you let us help you newer FPS players out, and learn something you can use in other games?


====================================================================


It was open for a month (2 weeks before the 'poll' and then the poll for 2 weeks where you could also test in the meantime, people who wanted to test I told them which server they could). I pasted the thread in multiple channels several times, if people don't read it, it's not my problem.

Your also goin to paste our conversation on IRC here again, and no doubt only include comments that make it sound like a bad idea.

You say were going to handy-cap you, but your want to handycap us better players.

You say we will use nex more and that our aim is too good, thats not my fault I have a better aim im getting sick and tired of people making things newbie friendly all the god damn time, there's nothing ever implemented for experienced players and it's just pissing me off.

I said to you I would make demo's TS2 FILES, voice over files so you can listen and learn and I can explain what TDM is about, you ask me how you want to get better, I want to show you but you want to stop that.

There's always going to be a big skill gap, between less skilled players and better skilled players, but stop punishing the better players all the time, reducing nex damage etc, it's not my fault I have a better aim, I don't complain about the nex being over-powered against bundy and revenger, because there my skill level...the experienced players in nexuiz always get punished to help the newbier players it seems all the time, and your giving the experienced players nothing to play with.

No more explaining really needs to be done. I believe all that could be said has been said. Now it's only down to testing.
Trying to play both better players than you and worse players than you. Try out both see how people react and what they think. Then coming here and posting their experience.
I've already posted mine before were I said it was fun with 25 sec and that it could work. But as my memory sucks big time I need to refresh it.
We know both arguments, 25 could cripple the underdog more and give him disadvantage, but at the same time as kojn stated, better players will still win no matter what settings. It's the adaption to those settings that matter, not the actual settings.

And I honestly don't see which is good or bad thus why testing is so important. I personally believe in the end it doesn't matter but the real question would be, which would be a more competitive mode? We've already had 15 secs so we all know that (or should at least), sometimes it gets too spammy and too uncoordinated. Now it's time for 25 to shine and see if it improves competition or not.

ai wrote:(...)
3. 25 sec for all things.
Would it be possible to do that?
(....)

"all things" means.. mega armor, quad, mega heahlt..?

Fisume! wrote:

ai wrote:(...)
3. 25 sec for all things.
Would it be possible to do that?
(....)

"all things" means.. mega armor, quad, mega heahlt..?

he was talking about the timelimit I believe

Now, seriously. I'm now doing the change for the ladder and will inform the admins of the ladder servers to update.

Additionally I will try to convince esteel or sxen to setup an additional server, that is not an official ladder server, but uses the official ladder server settings, except for the addition of allowing the three respawn-times to be votable.

Fisume! wrote:

ai wrote:(...)
3. 25 sec for all things.
Would it be possible to do that?
(....)

"all things" means.. mega armor, quad, mega heahlt..?

Nah, not those. But I hoped you guys would understand Too lazy to write out all those things again.

Let me crystalize this for everyone:

1. The only thing that matters today in nexuiz on high level of play is nex aim, regardless of game type (NA & EU 1v1 tourneys were dominated by nex whores/botters, every CTF pickup/public game, at least on EU, is won by a team with better nex aimers, etc etc etc -- I have proof to any of these, jut ask).

2. A conclusion can be drawn on the basis of #1 -- to "improve" (the word so vigorously abused by certain people on this thread), you have to be better at nex aim. Oh and please spare me your item timing bullshit. It has had no effect in tourneys, the only thing that mattered is dominating your unarmed enemies with nex.

3. The only reasonabe way to improve one's aim (known to me) is to "lower sens, aim nex, rinse, repeat" (thanks TwEaK). But here's the catch. To improve in nex aim you have to be able to access nex.

4. Now here is another catch -- best (or at least a member of top3) european nex aimer, 1v1dm euro champion, leader of the strongest tdm/dm clan is pushing for a change that will effectively restrict every lower-skill player's access to nex in certain game types whatsoever. His reasons? Official is 'to teach people better tdm'. I call bullshit. My guess is to dominate even more, and also break everyone else's gut item timing (not everyone uses the clock to do it), and forbid any kind of improvement for people.

5. A certain admin, leader of long-dead EU dm clan, who does not give a shit about this game any more and isn't playing it on regular basis either, has published a modified ladder server configs and expects every other major server admin to swallow his shit.

Those are mine conclusions. Read, think and make your own.

PS: this discussion have risen a major game balance point I would lile to address: (quoting kojn)

but stop punishing the better players all the time, reducing nex damage etc

Now here's my point of view. In an epic strategy game, warcraft III, it took developers (blizzard) 7 years and 23 major patches to get the game balance together. First patches fixed elf abuse, then necro abuse, and now they are fixing towers abuse. STILL FIXING. AFTER 7 YEARS. PUNISHING THE MOTHER FUCKING IMBA ABUSERS.. That's what nexuiz developers haven't ever had balls to do.

EDIT:

This was the immediate response of community members regarding the issue:

<MrBougo> nice, noone cares
<Cortez666> indeed

Says a lot about community, IMO.

---s

alpha wrote:4. Now here is another catch -- best (or at least a member of top3) european nex aimer, 1v1dm euro champion, leader of the strongest tdm/dm clan is pushing for a change that will effectively restrict every lower-skill player's access to nex in certain game types whatsoever. His reasons? Official is 'to teach people better tdm'. I call bullshit. My guess is to dominate even more, and also break everyone else's gut item timing (not everyone uses the clock to do it), and forbid any kind of improvement for people.

you say to access the nex, well im not asking for just the nex respawn time to be changed am I?

It will effect all weapons, I made the example on stormkeep because like the railgun in Q3, it is the most effective hitscan weapon, and for me (a good aimer) controlling this is how I will do better, regardless if you the damage was lowered, I would still use it nearly all the time still alpha.

The fact is even if the nexgun damage was lowered, we'd still time the weapon because it's the powerfullest hitscan and most useful if you include the mg.

I'd also time the Rocket Launcher If I was timing the MH on stormkeep also, If I was able too because again it's in an important position and is powerful in the right circumstances


This is what im trying to get at, stop using the nexgun as an excuse, if it did get changed, then what would your oppinion be anyway? that it's unfair that other players know how to time weapons? there's nothing stopping you to learn.

So please tell me, if the nexgun damage did get reduced or the nex got made more 'balanced' would you stop complaining?

also you just don't want to learn something new to improve, you just want to somehow allow yourself to be able to weaken a weapon better players are better with then you.

I already told you in ut2004 teams did the same, controlling the hitscan weapons, but you don't seem to understand the concept of controlling weapons, some weapons are going to be stronger then others in certain situations, im not saying the new is overpowered or under-powered, it used to be 150 damage alpha and even quicker firing rate I can only imagine you complaining back then.


The change is NOT to be related with the nexgun, if anything it would allow you to time the nexgun anyway against us better players to stop us using it as much, the change is to enhance TDM gamestyle to allow you to understand what TDM is about, but at the moment for you alpha you still don't understand.

what's so hard to understand about that really.

alpha wrote:Let me crystalize this for everyone:

I call bullshit. My guess is to dominate even more, and also break everyone else's gut item timing (not everyone uses the clock to do it), and forbid any kind of improvement for people.

Again, I time by clock, more accurate for me, if you don't time more accurately and by your gut instinct that's upto you, but it's not my fault that I clock time and that it is more effective and allows me to collect the items, thats what the better players in FPS games do alpha again to try and create a better control for themselves to be able to dominate the opponent.

It's almost as if again, you can't be arsed to learn so want to make it easier in other ways for you to compete against me.

I vote yes for higher weapon respawntime. I also like higher spawning time of the health. So my option would be : 25 seconds (weapons + health packs). Dont touch shards, ammo, 5 healthstuff! But its not available.

Now to quote some of your stuff alpha .. sorry, i dont want to offend you, but your points are in my oppinion just bad.

To my knowledge of TDM: I play TDM more then 10 years now.

alpha wrote:Let me crystalize this for everyone:
1. The only thing that matters today in nexuiz on high level of play is nex aim, regardless of game type (NA & EU 1v1 tourneys were dominated by nex whores/botters, every CTF pickup/public game, at least on EU, is won by a team with better nex aimers, etc etc etc -- I have proof to any of these, jut ask).

You can proof that CTF 3v3 or 1v1dm got won by the better nex aimers. Even I dont agree with the 1v1dm part here, I dont have to argue about it, because we are talking about 2v2TDM here. And now we come to the problem with the current settings: You can play it like FFA. Every good aimer can catch a weapon and frag some. Good Teamplay is not as rewarded as it has to be.

alpha wrote:2. A conclusion can be drawn on the basis of #1 -- to "improve" (the word so vigorously abused by certain people on this thread), you have to be better at nex aim. Oh and please spare me your item timing bullshit. It has had no effect in tourneys, the only thing that mattered is dominating your unarmed enemies with nex.

If you are serious about this, I bet you never played TDM competive. NEVER. This is complete bullshit (just to use your words). Timing is for 1v1 and 2v2 one of the biggest parts in the game. Especially when you are in control, able to do spawnkills, you cant stop timing. I cant belive you just wrote that ... you cannot compare mr. neverhit against mr. aimbotlike. But if you have someone who is aiming slightly worse, he can easily catchup with the other parts (timing/tactic/positioning) and especially with that change for 2v2tdm, the edge for the "thinking" player gets higher, which is fine (as playing in a team is a lot harder then playing for you own).

alpha wrote:3. The only reasonabe way to improve one's aim (known to me) is to "lower sens, aim nex, rinse, repeat" (thanks TwEaK). But here's the catch. To improve in nex aim you have to be able to access nex.

Oh come on .. if you want to improve nexaiming (or aiming overall), you are going to play some minsta or 1v1. Dont you? As if people were unable to train aiming when TDM settings get changed ..

alpha wrote:4. Now here is another catch -- best (or at least a member of top3) european nex aimer, 1v1dm euro champion, leader of the strongest tdm/dm clan is pushing for a change that will effectively restrict every lower-skill player's access to nex in certain game types whatsoever. His reasons? Official is 'to teach people better tdm'. I call bullshit. My guess is to dominate even more, and also break everyone else's gut item timing (not everyone uses the clock to do it), and forbid any kind of improvement for people.

OK wait. The goal of this change is, that strong TDM players have a lot more room to bash the weaker players. YES .. thats the only goal we want to archieve with that! Are you serious? The goal is to improve the gameplay of tdm. It doesnt feel perfectly like a teammode right now, cause you can play it like FFA. A good aimer will be always strong, but this change makes him a bit weaker, while a good thinking player gets stronger. Teamplay overall will be more effective, as you are able to control areas. And even when you are a bit worser, you can give anyone a better match, if you are able to controll at least one important area. It is true, that this will give experienced players an bigger edge over new players. But it doesnt effect the gameoutcome ... the more experienced players will rape the new ones anyways. But on equal skill level, this change will make it a lot more interesting overall and fit a lot more to the gametype TEAMdeathmatch.

Alpha, I mean that serious: All your points look like you played rarely any TDM games. Correct me here if I am wrong.

There is now a test server at

delight.vapor.com:26600

where you can vote for alternative respawn times!

Vote for:
g_pickup_respawntime_short xx, for health(5/25) and armor (5)
g_pickup_respawntime_ammo xx
g_pickup_respawntime_weapon xx

This server is not limited to a game mode. But of course, test it for 2on2 primarily since this is the point of the whole thing anyway!

Great, thanks a lot!

morfar wrote:25 seconds (weapons only).

20 might be good also. Medium armor (25 points) and Large health (50 points), will spawn at that rate in 2.5.

25 seconds weapons only? Soon i will try that weapons too.

baboo wrote:

morfar wrote:25 seconds (weapons only).

20 might be good also. Medium armor (25 points) and Large health (50 points), will spawn at that rate in 2.5.

25 seconds weapons only? Soon i will try that weapons too.

Join the real nexuiz community at www.xonotic.org

shaggy wrote:I think 25 seconds should be the weapon spawn time. It's too easy to lose control of a map when the other team respawns.

Me too, thinks that 25 seconds should be the weapon spawn time.