+1 to c brutail

Rad Ished wrote:+1 to c brutail

Quote

AFAIK, unless the permission to use Darkplaces and any other data was obtained from everyone that has contributions in Nexuiz/Darkplaces, then ConsoleNexuiz isn't legal. Obviously this doesn't apply to any re-written code.

I think I retract what I said earlier, I too agree with C.Brutail -- I can understand that it would be difficult to change names now, but honestly... I think it's in the best interest of both IllFonic and the Nexuiz community to have IllFonic's Nexuiz be named something else (More specifically, with a slight variation of Nexuiz). Everyone here agrees that this is one of the biggest issues of this whole thing, and it would be far easier to change it than to face the problems which are caused by allowing the games to share the same name. I personally will not stand for our game (Nexuiz) being forced to change names, and considering your game isn't even released yet I don't understand how it would be too much of a problem.

I submit to that.

Everyone that committed to SVN darkplaces assigned their copyright to, I think, LH, as a condition for their commit access. So, no, no legal problem there.

As for the data, I heard the IllFonic did ask the authors and did get a license for the data.
No legal issue there.

As for Name. They're not going to change it.
The darkplaces engine basically /IS/ nexuiz,
just like the unreal engine /WAS/ Unreal the game. This is what is known when you say Unreal or Nexuiz (the level of quality each represents).
This is why they went with the name.

As for the market: it's the console players who are the market/audiance here, not US. It doesn't matter what we want: we're not the people they're going to sell their game, Nexuiz, to. They've allready said that they will not contribute back Artwork and will not contribute back Source Code. No, we are a bunch of freeloaders freeloading on a videogame. It had to end some day.

We basically have to change the name of our gpl nexuiz.
I suggest Nexuiz:Depreciated , but translated into german so it sounds germanish. German is... a dark tounge. Makes everything sound strenghtful.

It was good while it lasted.
I just hope that maybe tzork and Div0 get some money out of this since they contributed so much, I doubt that will happen though. The contract was allready signed without them, so obviously they aren't needed from a legal standpoint and thusly aren't an obstacle that needs money poured upon it to go away.

What is the future? Well likely Div0 will continue to have a intensive job not related to nexuiz so won't have time to do much work on _difficult_ programming problems/features in nexuiz. Tzork is probably pissed at all this stuff happening w/o him knowing about it either and everyone else has allready stated that they don't want to work on a superceded project

Nexuiz:Depreciated is dead.
Long live non-freeloader-nexuiz (aka: Nexuiz) that will help put the food on the table of people who slave away for 2 months straight for 12 hours a day and expect some much deserved return on investment for that work.

You know, I had a dream, and it must have been a dream, where I worked on maps for something like 14 hours per day, constantly, and then released them ... just to piss off people. And I did this for free. Obviously it was a dream because the website that I remeber releasing them on... cat ... cat something something cat... doesn't resolve.

And, you know, during that long dream, man it went on for _years_... (in that dream I remeber being in some school or college too... crazy, dumb fuck like me being in college, and yall can attest to how dumb I ... or was that a dream too) I remeber talking to this four letter phantom "Div0" and he would talk about these features, and they would appear in Nexuiz:Depreciated suddenly, and I got the impression that he was ALWAYS working on this stuff, like 24/7 for WAY more that 2 months.

And I remeber like mad free GPL shit being ammassed like crazy, some 3rd party, some in SVN Nexuiz:Depreciated itself. Like, I could have sworn I released like 40 something maps, but they all sucked, and these other peeps released like a tone of good maps, that were good, and all these programmers and 3d artists made new things like vehicles and multi colored blood and textures... lots of stuff.

I must have been in a coma, long ass dream. But anyway in the dream these people who slaved away for like 12 hours a day or more sometimes ... they just released this stuff as GPL.

And they didn't say "yall taking food from my mouth".

I dunno, crazy. Well glad I woke up.

C.Brutail wrote:Kedhrin, I suggest you and your fellow developers to start a real conversation with us. As you can see, Vermeulen doesn't really communicate with us, so it'd be nice to know the story from square one: who are you really, how'd you came up with the idea of forking Nexuiz to PS3, etc. etc. It would be realy nice to have a personal introduction from all the major developers at Illfonic. You know, we're all friends here, and we've always done open discussions about everything, even if there were some major arguments, that made developers and players leave the scene. What I'm trying to say, that trust and straightness are the major column of our community. I'm sorry to have to say this, but untill you're not straight with us, you won't earn our respect and trust, and in the end you'll only gain hate.

I don't think you've realised yet: AlienTrap is NOT developing this game now for years. At least it's not the same AT that released Nexuiz 1.0.
The developers, that you name as AlienTrap, is really THE NEXUIZ COMMUNITY.

Also, one really aching point: You're talking about respect and homage to Nexuiz by porting and creating a new game on PS3. Still, you start to refer the original game as GPL Nexuiz, and the new one as simply Nexuiz.

WRONG.

It's we who Nexuiz is. Not Illfonic's Commercial Nexuiz.

I think the whole Nexuiz community would agree with every move you make, if you'd start the homage with NOT STEALING THE NAME.
A crazy, ideal and naive idea from me: if you do care about us, let us to decide the title of Illfonic's Nexuiz. The original players, developers. It would be an honor for us, and a big reputation gain for You. As you can see, we have pretty enough creative minds. If you lend us this opportunity, we promise we won't let you down!
Think about it! Press releases inform the whole world, that you, IllFonic, the proud owner of the Nexuiz name let the original community to decide about a title of your new game, showing your respect to us, while we give the same for you! This would be the most awesome market move!
Similar how id software handled the scandal that the source code of Quake leaked out, and a lonely developer ported it to Linux. Instead of sueing him, they have merged his code, and made it official.

I can already see the covers of online newspapers: "IllFonic is walking in the shoes of John Carmack".

Do you need more attetion than this?

What about forwarding this idea to your marketing management?

Thanks for your feedback. I'm sorry you want to see it that way. But we are a company. We try to maintain personal exposure and put it out there when necessary. Our team acts very independent, very creative and are a group of intelligent guys. But, I am not going to put my team in here to defend themselves and our company decisions. There are very confidential things in our situation I cannot disclose. This post was good, you had good ideas but I cannot comment on us acting on them.

Unfortunately, I have nothing else to say on this thread. I've responded in a professional format, way more personal than I usually do in a public forum these days trying to connect with. Unfortunately, I will not listen to demands or snappy comments. I will keep you guys updated, soon we'll have official IllFonic forums up (not hosted on this site) for Nexuiz concerns as well. We are very excited, and I know you guys will be excited too once you see what we are doing in more depth after GDC 2010.

Thank You

At least I tried.

<LordHavoc> locked that topic at Kedhrin's request
<Samual> -.-
* Vermeulen kilépett (Ping timeout: 364 seconds)
<Samual> Seriously?
<LordHavoc> yes
<LordHavoc> he said it's the top result on google and looks like it will never end
<Samual> Meh I think i'm --- Meh.
<LordHavoc> he doesn't mind people making other topics for it, just that one is becoming too much of a headache for him
<Samual> Tell him to come to this channel, clearly you're talking to him from somewhere.
<tZork> so now he gets to moderate gpl nexuiz forrum?

I've removed my harsh comment.

In hopes that people have had a chance to calm down, I am unlocking this topic again.

Please take into consideration the official announcement on the Nexuiz page before commenting.

It is my belief that this upcoming game will benefit the community, and I enjoy working on it and playing it.

I am trying to make sure all useful engine features are public and have no intention of interfering with the progress of Nexuiz in all its forms.

However the gamecode for the upcoming title is more of a one-off affair and should not concern people as it is a narrowly focused game without all the tweaking known to Nexuiz players today, there is no magic in gamecode, divverent and others are quite good at replicating new behaviors if any new features interest them.

Let's talk about this rationally, thank you.

Hi,

i am sure that much good can come out of this collaboration, too.. But even after the first heated debates calmed down somewhat i still find it unfortunate to use the exact same name. Think of the outrage that ensued when some corporation tried to trademark the "linux" name (you can read a summary on the wikipedia linux page).. The main difference to the nexuiz case was that at that time the project inventor and leader didn't like it either. At that time contributors and developers both went to court to protect the name and won. Imagine Linus had announced to the linux crowd that Sun Microsystems licensed their code (in a similar way as it happened with nexuiz, i.e. cleared with authors and replaced if not) and would release "Linux", a proprietary Unix OS :D He would probably have been killed ;D

Many open source projects are emotional beasts. People attach good feelings with a name. It means something. Nexuiz is known (albeit not too widely) as an open source project. It's simply not a good idea to just take the exact same name and latch it onto a closed source, proprietary product, even if it shares code and properties with the open source one.

As soon as you release an open source project and it gains some momentum, there's no such thing as a single "owner" anymore. It has become something bigger than that. Quite frankly I'm a bit surprised that you (or maybe only Lee) didn't foresee the ongoing discussion and outrage..

I still don't understand why you locked this thread for a third party's request. I thought this is our forum.
Also, Illfonic has to accept the bad criticism too.

Just my two cents...

C.Brutail wrote:I still don't understand why you locked this thread for a third party's request. I thought this is our forum.
Also, Illfonic has to accept the bad criticism too.

Just my two cents...

I was personally annoyed by the thread's direction and wanted people to cool down for a day before continuing discussion, but was not going to act on this, then I got the request (and my IRC comments were incorrect as to the reason they wanted it locked, but no matter, history is history).

So it was not solely at their request, but also my own annoyance.

I look forward to more constructive discussion on the topic, and have no plans to interfere again.

Ok, so what was the reason they wanted it to be locked?
Oh, and please, don't come with the "sorry I can't talk about it" bullshit.
Please, at least you could be honest with us.

Please change the name. This hijacking of the name is what upsets people the most, you could turn it around by doing this one thing.

C.Brutail wrote:Ok, so what was the reason they wanted it to be locked?
Oh, and please, don't come with the "sorry I can't talk about it" bullshit.
Please, at least you could be honest with us.

I am being honest, I was told this thread was grabbing all attention on search results, distracting from the announcements, and to please lock it.

This combined with my annoyance resulted in me locking it.

There is no deeper reason to it.

I also tire of the subject of why this thread was locked, unlocked by someone so you could post, and then locked again, and I hope no one bothers me about why I unlocked it now, there is nothing more to say about it for my part.

I would prefer to stay on the appropriate topic of the future of both Nexuiz games.

LordHavoc wrote:
I am being honest, I was told this thread was grabbing all attention on search results, distracting from the announcements, and to please lock it.

And? Like I've said before, they must accept the bad criticism too. This was pure censorship.
If Kedhrin woudn't replied in the elitist way he did, things might have turned out other ways. I also don't understand how could he take my invitation as a direct insult to open discussion.
Also, as I'm a moderator, there's no need for anybody to lock/unlock a topic for me so I can post.

So, you want to talk about the future of the two games? Ok, let's talk. What we recieved yet are half promises. "We can't disclose..." "we can't tell yet..." "there's possibility..."

This is called holding out a carrot with us.
Me don't like it. And I'm certain lot other's don't either.
Talking about one thing is one thing. Actually accomplishing promises is another one. We are really afraid and sceptical that Illfonic's Nexuiz site won't advertise Nexuiz in an equal way. That'll hurt Nexuiz for sure.

LordHavoc wrote:
It is my belief that this upcoming game will benefit the community, and I enjoy working on it and playing it.

I am sure we will see some positive effects. but at what cost?

On the positive we will probably see some improvements to game engine.
We may get a few more newbs to frag.
The console version does look cool and I am interested on how it turns out.

From the negative side, we have effectively had our brand watered down
The Nexuiz brand was built up by years of word of mouth , dozens of fan and clan pages, numerous articles,and links from download sites.

Potential loss of contributors, I hope this does not happen , but I think it will. There are some bad feelings on how this whole thing was handled

The true version of Nexuiz is just a footnote on the nexuiz.com domain.

Forum censorship, if a forum topic is critical of Illfonic and is high on google search results it gets locked.

Confusion of having two games with the exact same name.

Trust is lost, I do not believe Alientrap has Nexuiz's best interest at heart. It appears that Alientrap is more interested in building it's presence as console game developer than
doing what is best for the Nexuiz community.

What is truly sad is that this all could have been avoided

LordHavoc wrote:I am being honest, I was told this thread was grabbing all attention on search results, distracting from the announcements, and to please lock it.

Well, if you think this is grabbing too much attention, it's nothing compared to what might happen should the community's grievances reach Slashdot or some other major site, and I think the odds of that are highly likely. I too am a little surprised that you and Lee did not have the foresight to not realize what the reaction would be here and abroad. The damage is done, it's really up to Illfonic and AlienTrap to repair it. Now I know that Illfonic's mindset is "we paid for the license, so we will do as we please, too bad for you", because that is precisely what Kenhdrin has posted here. Their rigidness is very corporate, cold, and heavy handed. They certainly aren't going to earn the respect of the community with this approach.

More advice - change the name. This wouldn't solve all of the contention, but it would solve 90% of it. Change it to Nexuiz Warzone, Nexuiz Championship, Nexuiz Battlezone, or something derivative like that, and you still have the Nexuiz name you paid for, and there is no confusion and bad feelings. Please don't tell people that is not an option, because everybody knows it is, Illfonic just doesn't feel they have to do it. Titles change names all the time. Perhaps they should wake up and smell the bad publicity brewing ahead.

Here's a cool title:

The Nexuiz: Peace Through Conflict

It explains the game's story and sounds cool. It's been said several times over that the game's art style could help explain a backstory on how the Nexuiz began and interest some of the PC crowd because of it.

You guys need to quit putting your proverbial heads in the sand about this. Yes Nexuiz has been licensed to IllFonic however you don't really have any legal say, the fact that Kedhrin has even put forth the effort to post this thread is proof of his desire to include the community in some way heck, he may even offer beta discs for people on this community to test, we don't know. Quit nurfing this guy for being considerate of your opinion and shut up about him "stealing" the Nexuiz name (which he DID NOT do) Also I'm sorry my first post as an actual member had to be negative toward the community but this needed to be said.

Hello, and welcome to the forum!

Note taken, as it represents another point of view.

I remember something similar to this discussion when Splash Damage was hired by id and Activision to develop ETQW (which was going to be a TC for Quake 4) however that topic is long gone.

I'm not sure that someone in the community would want those discs. Plus you speak like that because you didn't put any work into the game (so, the name), but think about those that wasted hundreds of hours trying to raise this game's quality.

BTW, I just downloaded the SVN. I'm starting to look around and maybe start implementing a small feature for the beginning,

It's generally considered bad form to release a derivative of a GPL work without crediting the developers of the original work. It's not a REQUIRMENT of the GPL to credit, it's just polite. Would many Nezuis contributors have less of a problem with Console Nexuiz if they were named somewhere in the credits? This wouldn't mean IllFonic would have to give away any commercial rights to anything but might remove some of the 'stolen' stigma.

Look, I've spent thousands of hours working on my own engine, I know what kind of effort went into this project. However I also know that contribution doesn't guarantee you'll get complete say in what happens. Truthfully anyone who contributes to a project like this is a pawn for the real people in charge (the AT ). You don't see people over at Polycount complaining about id using some of their concepts as a base for a project (in fact they are usually flattered) you people are just to attached to your toy, it's time to let it go and see it grow up.


EDIT:
Also, the source code is GPL'd not the name, if a big name company like EA came buy and gave you a C&D because you are using the name of a project they just started guess what! The courts will automatically side with EA if a suit starts because they own the Trademark.

antidote wrote:You guys need to quit putting your proverbial heads in the sand about this. Yes Nexuiz has been licensed to IllFonic however you don't really have any legal say, the fact that Kedhrin has even put forth the effort to post this thread is proof of his desire to include the community in some way heck, he may even offer beta discs for people on this community to test, we don't know. Quit nurfing this guy for being considerate of your opinion and shut up about him "stealing" the Nexuiz name (which he DID NOT do) Also I'm sorry my first post as an actual member had to be negative toward the community but this needed to be said.

Welcome to forums
Now STFU , Just kidding

You may want to introduce yourself before telling us to shut up and you would probably feel differently if you had a vested interest in Nexuiz.

parasti wrote:Please change the name. This hijacking of the name is what upsets people the most, you could turn it around by doing this one thing.

The only thing Kedhrin / Illfonic says when asked about that is "I have no more comments to make about the name". In other words, the easier and nicer way of saying "NO!" I'm still waiting for some other answer from them, if Illfonic will ever give one. I am calm, just what I am seeing.

So? hundreds of people had already contributed to the old ET:QW project and guess what? it was all thrown away however they didn't moan and groan about it like this community they shrugged their shoulder's like grown ups and started another project (can't remember what it was)

Thanks for the responses.

As I said before, the name will remain Nexuiz for now. This will not change right now. It is not up for debate. We as IllFonic want you guys to be apart of our community and to be happy. Some things we cannot do. If the name not changing is one of those things, I cannot do anything to change your mind. I am sorry - but it is what it is. If you think an NDA is useless and how it prevents me from saying things is an excuse - i have nothing to say to you either. I appreciate those of you who are asking us about the name change and giving suggestions very politely. Please understand we are not going to change the name right now.

This thread was hijacked about complaints about us taking the name, which should have been brought to me in private or on another thread - not blasted on a thread where people will look to it for information on what we are doing. THIS is why it was locked. It is not a censorship issue. If I wanted to censor you, I would've just deleted the thread. I can be a complete dick and flex my muscle but I'm not going to do that, that is not our company lifestyle. People are insulting us on our own areas as well. We do not delete these things. We are professionals.

This thread was intended for information for players who actually do want to know what we are doing with the console version, give their feedback and see how things were going. This has been ruined for those people. Many people have PM'd me in private with these relevant questions and I have responded to them politely and respectfully. If I see a relevant question posted on here, I will respond. I have been being very nice to everyone so far. If you don't see that, I have nothing to say to you. I ask anyone who has something to say about the project we are doing, please contact me in private or even another thread and I will be more than happy to answer your questions (except on the name, legal or confidential information).

I came on the IRC channel and was way willing to talk about the project and what we are doing (http://nexuizfiles.com/illfonic/kedhrin ... iscussion/) - BTW I am not the Lead Programmer
I am already talking about WAY more than any other publisher would ever talk to you guys about. Most people in the industry would call me insane for even getting on your IRC room and opening myself up like I am to an open source community. But I did it and I'm trying. I'm hearing from all over my peers in the industry to just stop talking to you guys but I insist on not giving up. This is not marketing mumbo-jumbo. If you don't believe it, I cannot convince you.

If you want to threaten me with press threats or otherwise, I have nothing to say to you. Do what you want, I wont even try to stop you.

We have many things planned for the community existing, including giving away some of our hard work on the source code - for free, crediting the original community in the credits (as supplied by the community) as well as Beta Invites and potentially free copies of the game. These are things I can talk about and want to talk about. As well as much much more, including features, how we work, what our work flow is etc.

But, if you choose to ignore this, i will gladly return the favor and ignore you.

Thanks.