I actually like the idea best where you would see your next spawnpoint and be able to delay your spawn at that location up to 2 seconds or so

sev wrote:The main problem when spawning is that you are vulnerable. So make the player start with 100 Health, 100 Armour and a good weapon like the machinegun. Problem solved.

No, that doesn't solve it. The tourney mod has a warmup mode where you get full weapons and more armor/health when you spawn. A common "problem" with this scenario is that the person who just died will spawn and then immediately go and kill the remaining player because they have low health. So if you give newly spawned players extra armor and a better weapon, it'll give them an advantage.

To KOJN:
What is wanted is to remove or reduce the common scenario where one player can easily kill another player without any skill involved and without that player being able to defend themselves. It's like an automatic kill and that's why it's lame. It's not about adding more rules. It's about tweaking the game to make it more about skill than about taking advantage of a game feature to get an easy point.

Making the spawned player invisible and invulnerable and not able fire their weapon for a few seconds is a good tradeoff, I think. As always, this should be an optional feature that is set on the server side. Options are always good.

k0jak wrote:

Wii-Wii wrote:I vote for... nothing !
It'd be bad to add rules, rules and again rules everytime players complain...
Moreover, spawn-killing doesn't happen so often... (at least in CTF)
But maybe it'd be good for 1on1 (especially for the ladder matches).

I think this is a true point and i missed this before i wrote my post, it just does seem like adding rules and rules, it's been like this since nexuiz bega from when i have played..i don't see the point in wanting a change now.

what would be next....i took 5 armours in a row so im not allowed to pick another one up next time?

oh and i can't think to imagine how terrible this would be in CTF / TDM when the gameplay is quite frantic..having to wait 1-3 seconds till a players 'invincibility' ran out before you could shoot...even 2 players fresh off a spawn if one gets a weapon and the other just has a shotgun within the time before it wears off then they can both start shooting at you straight away after it wears off...i mean come-on this would be ridiculous, its then putting me who already has weapons at a disadvantage..a really big one.

I understand the frustration of less-experienced players, but i share k0jak's views mostly. Any changes regarding spawning heavily influence the game experience. ihsan's idea to indicate the immunity by glowing is a necessity for anything over 1 second. It should only give you time to get away from the hotspot. You could only use Laser while the Shotgun was locked during this time. Alternatively to time, the immunity could also expire after leaving the spawnpoint.

So, can this be implemented? It seems like most people are in agreement that this is a problem, and that 2-3 seconds of invincibility is the solution (granted that the player is glowing during that time, and he cannot shoot).
I think its better that player be stopped from shooting during this time, even with the laser- because otherwise it could be abused. For example, on facing someone could grab the Quad and laser to the enemy base by the time 3 seconds is up.

This change would just be annoying and confusing. Please don't :]

I think it would be a tremendously bad idea for the following reasons:

1: In a 1on1 I am having a big fight with someone, we both take heavy damage but I am the first on to end up dead. When I spawn and I am near to the player GET THIS: I AM AT AN ADVANTAGE ! I AM STACKED WITH HEALTH ! AND THE SHOTGUN CAN DO A LOT OF DAMAGE !
Do you know how many times I have been able to end somebody's streak because of a LUCKY SPAWN ? I am close, give them 3 whacks with the SG and be done with them. But if I can't shoot for 3 seconds I can only run away ! And a player who runs away is always at a disadvantage ! How stupid and annoying would this be ? When I am spawned I want to be able to shoot dammit ! You all seem to think that the player who survives in a fight gets out of it with 150 Health and 100 armor but very often in 1on1's this is NOT the case [except when playing kojn of course ].

2: Also how far do you think the player will get when he has 2-3 seconds of normal running ? Only when you spawn on top of a good weapon will you stand any chance against a good player. Who, by the way IS able to use laser, so you stand an even smaller chance. Because if someone spawn rapes then they will also see no problem going after you... What do you think, they will gracially let you get away ? Well then they would have done that anyway.

Please don't :]

If it does get changed please only by default for CTF ? Don't let DM suffer again for a change to CTF gameplay :S

Please, just... don't.

PunkRabbit wrote:When I spawn and I am near to the player GET THIS: I AM AT AN ADVANTAGE ! I AM STACKED WITH HEALTH ! AND THE SHOTGUN CAN DO A LOT OF DAMAGE !

You think that none of us have thought about that scenario? Seriously, are you the only one out of the entire Nexuiz community that has played 1v1? Maybe you're right because you wrote it in all caps.

What about the flipside of that scenario? I had a 1v1 just a few days ago where I was down 8-0 and I broke the other player's streak FINALLY. Man, what a relief. Then he spawned right in front of me and killed me easily because I had 35 health left. I lost the chance to gain control of the map because of that spawn. That happened to me a second time later on during the same match. So "lucky spawns" aren't always a good thing. It's an advantage or a kill that is not based on skill and that makes it an undesired thing.

2: Also how far do you think the player will get when he has 2-3 seconds of normal running ?

They at least won't be killed by weapon as soon as they spawn. They at least have some chance to do evade or head toward a weapon, health, armor or powerup.

Only when you spawn on top of a good weapon will you stand any chance against a good player. Who, by the way IS able to use laser, so you stand an even smaller chance. Because if someone spawn rapes then they will also see no problem going after you... What do you think, they will gracially let you get away ? Well then they would have done that anyway.

Please don't :]

I'm so sick of people in the Nexuiz community shooting down ideas before they even leave the starting gate. It's like a disease that sometimes spreads through this community. Some even sound upset that conversations like this even happening.

Isn't the whole premise of open source based upon open experimentation with ideas and exploring without limitation? Isn't that how Nexuiz was built? Ok, people pointed out that UT has tried something to reduce spawnkills before and I suppose it didn't work for UT. Well, this isn't UT. THIS IS SPARTA....I mean THIS IS NEXUIZ!!! Maybe Nexuiz can eventually come up with a better solution than UT. What's wrong with exploring the possibilities that could result in helping gameplay? Spawn kills obviously bother lots of players, so it definitely would be an improvement if some solution would come from this.

Why not have multiple OPTIONS for the server admin to set and adjust and experiment to find out if it's a good thing or a bad thing instead of making conclusions so early?

If it does get changed please only by default for CTF ? Don't let DM suffer again for a change to CTF gameplay :S

Throughout this discussion, I've primarily been thinking about DM gameplay, but it would help CTF also.

Wait... it is now being put in to protect the spawnraper himself... ? What ?

Well do as you like, just don't put it in as a default like that 5 seconds to self kill option was :/

waaah? spawnprotect in pvp? wth? is this not this gamestyle all abt beating your oponent silly, and keep kicking him/her while down untill it stays down? srsly, i dont get it for pvp. for public team games games it makes somehwat sense (if done 'right') but dm/1v1?

Hm, how about only on Beginner servers?

tZork wrote:... is this not this gamestyle all abt beating your oponent silly, and keep kicking him/her while down untill it stays down? ...

If so, the round may be stopped and the winner determined after the first frag.

Obviously, if you give one player an advantage, the other player(s) will get a disadvantage, and it is unlikely that every player will be satisfied with one or another solution.

As this ongoing discussion shows, the spawning process is not (yet) ideal, and I think the reason is that spawn points are too attractive to players who aim for easy frags. A possible solution should therefore make it less attractive to linger around spawn points.

Giving the spawned player good weapons can lead to other problems, I see that.

Personally, I do not like the idea of invincibility, I think it just delays the problems. What you basically get are glowing players wandering around, clearly indicating they just spawned and are easy targets when the glowing stops.

I like the idea mentioned some time before, which is to make the spawned player invisible (not inviNCible) for a few seconds.
I thought about that and I would take that even further:
For a few seconds after spawning, the server does not process the data you produce and does not send you data from the ongoing match. During this time you can do anything like normal (jump with laser, pick up power-ups). After this time communication with the server continues, and you continue playing, and appear the other players, from where and how you are (basically like a lag).

The advantage I see in this solution is that the spawn point becomes a spawn field, and where someone spawn becomes (more) unpredictable, thus making the spawn locations less attractive to wait for easy frags. And the spawned player would not get the advantage of seeing the other players and being able to surprise them with an attack right after becoming visible.

Okay, here goes my idea for spawn points (sorry if this has been discussed before, i haven't read the whole thread ) :

You spawn like always, but you've 2 seconds where you can use a "personal teleporter" to teleport you to the next spawnpoint.
This could be realized by pressing "jump" during the first 2 seconds. Of course jumping is important at the beginning to gain speed, and if you're satisfied with your spawnpoint then teleporting would be silly. So jumping as teleporting should only work if you haven't pressed a movement key so far.
This should only work once after your initial spawn.

So basically:
1. you spawn
2a. you move and thus your spawn can't get changed anymore (like it is now)
2b. you have 2 seconds time to look around and to use "jump" to teleport to the next spawnpoint if you want to. This works once a spawn.

If you get hit instantly after spawning, you'll be pushed away, but as long as you don't use a movement key you still can teleport.

Pros:
-You can play Nexuiz like you always played it, but you have this new opportunity to teleport. This is basically an advantage, but to use it you'll need some time to realize where you've spawned and you need to stand still. So this advantage is counterbalanced by the need to get orientation first.
-You're not invincible which is an unfair advantage.
-You can avoid too messed up spawn-areas.
-You can't choose a specific spawnpoint to get a calculated advantage.
-You need to think fast. This will give an advantage to skilled players who know the map thus rewarding them.
-If your opponent/s hits you instantly after spawning and you teleport away, he still has the advantage that he's stocked and he knows that you got hurt, thus rewarding him. Still you have the opportunity to get back into the game on a fair level.

Cons:
-You'll be able to check out two different parts in a map very fast. That could be an unfair advantage especially in 1on1s. On the other hand: you just got killed
-Hard to explain fast to new players ingame. There could be a "T"-icon blinking as long as you can teleport
-Shooting/Killing a player (using the shotgun for example) and teleporting to another spawnpoint could be possible, which can be an unfair advantage. This would happen very rarely though imo.

Btw: Maybe another time limit works better, but i think something around 2 seconds is fair.
What do you think ?

Strahlemann wrote:
So basically:
1. you spawn
2a. you move and thus your spawn can't get changed anymore (like it is now)
2b. you have 2 seconds time to look around and to use "jump" to teleport to the next spawnpoint if you want to. This works once a spawn.

Hmmm, sounds good to me!
One little thing concerning 2b:
Imho, the next spawnpoint should be out of sight of the initial one and random.
So if you wanna get away of your oppenent, you have the chance to do so.

(talking about 1v1 here) Spawnkills are part of the part of the game, IMHO it should not be changed. Anything done to fix this will cause other problems.

However, if invincibilty didnt have that glowing light, I would agree with a 1 sec invincibility, but not more. Why? Because has it was mentioned, shotgun is strong and this makes the freshly spawned player have the advantage. If you have 3 sec invincibility and spawn close to the other player, those 3 secs are enough to kill him if he doesn't have armor, and even if he has armor, you can hit him with shotgun during those 3 secs and if he doesnt kill you right after those seconds have passed, hit him again and he's dead. It doesn't make sense if the player just having made a kill has to be the one running away.

1 sec would be enough because if your opponent fires a rocket at a spawn point in case you'll spawn there, that rocket won't kill you. And 1 second is enough to start moving/laser jump out the way. So firing rockets are spawnpoints would become a lot less useful.

BUT, as I said, spawnkills are part of the game and I personally do not consider this a problem.

the only right solution to prevent spawnkills is to prevent spawning

use g_arena and be fine. After a kill everybody respawns.

Strahlemann wrote:Okay, here goes my idea for spawn points (sorry if this has been discussed before, i haven't read the whole thread ) :

You spawn like always, but you've 2 seconds where you can use a "personal teleporter" to teleport you to the next spawnpoint.
This could be realized by pressing "jump" during the first 2 seconds. Of course jumping is important at the beginning to gain speed, and if you're satisfied with your spawnpoint then teleporting would be silly. So jumping as teleporting should only work if you haven't pressed a movement key so far.
This should only work once after your initial spawn.

So basically:
1. you spawn
2a. you move and thus your spawn can't get changed anymore (like it is now)
2b. you have 2 seconds time to look around and to use "jump" to teleport to the next spawnpoint if you want to. This works once a spawn.

If you get hit instantly after spawning, you'll be pushed away, but as long as you don't use a movement key you still can teleport.

Pros:
-You can play Nexuiz like you always played it, but you have this new opportunity to teleport. This is basically an advantage, but to use it you'll need some time to realize where you've spawned and you need to stand still. So this advantage is counterbalanced by the need to get orientation first.
-You're not invincible which is an unfair advantage.
-You can avoid too messed up spawn-areas.
-You can't choose a specific spawnpoint to get a calculated advantage.
-You need to think fast. This will give an advantage to skilled players who know the map thus rewarding them.
-If your opponent/s hits you instantly after spawning and you teleport away, he still has the advantage that he's stocked and he knows that you got hurt, thus rewarding him. Still you have the opportunity to get back into the game on a fair level.

Cons:
-You'll be able to check out two different parts in a map very fast. That could be an unfair advantage especially in 1on1s. On the other hand: you just got killed
-Hard to explain fast to new players ingame. There could be a "T"-icon blinking as long as you can teleport
-Shooting/Killing a player (using the shotgun for example) and teleporting to another spawnpoint could be possible, which can be an unfair advantage. This would happen very rarely though imo.

Btw: Maybe another time limit works better, but i think something around 2 seconds is fair.
What do you think ?

I kinda like that idea. ( because of the blinking "T" )
But it seems too complex. New players already have difficulties entering the game.

The solution to this is very simple.

1. Random spawns, but smarter spawns.

If you die, you should not spawn immediately to the opposite side of the map. That would be horrible. The game should be able to select from 3-4 different spawn points that are very far away, and then randomly choose one of them as to not eliminate randomness and to prevent spawn memorization.

2. Invincibility for 2-3 seconds.

This is the most easily misinterpreted thing. Invincibility = bad, right? Absolutely, unless it's implemented correctly. If you spawn and an enemy is in the vicinity, if you dont' shoot, you remain invincible until your spawn invincibility wears off. If you DO shoot, then your invincibility wears off instantly. This is the most proper way to implement spawn invincibility and this is exactly how it should be implemented. No buts about it.

number 2 is absolutely not accectable for anything > 1vs1 ... you would have all players be invincible after any1 dies (if they don't shoot)

GreEn`mArine wrote:number 2 is absolutely not accectable for anything > 1vs1 ... you would have all players be invincible after any1 dies (if they don't shoot)

I don't understand how the killer gets invincible but then again it doesn't matter if everybody is invincible if nobody's shooting.

Sounds interesting!

me stupid, sorry

Thinking about this just a few minutes ago.

isn't the simplest option a spawn out of site / furthest spawn location.

It's such a simple change and would really change the gameplay of the game for the better in my oppinion, or as xeno said on irc "<@XenoTheBlind> or at least stack the probability towards spawning away from where you died "

just a furthest spawn away sounds like a good idea for a start, its simple and surely wouldnt be hard to implement?

It would make games much more interesting..gameplay wise, no more having to die all the time when either your spawn-raped constantly or you kill someone and they spawn behind you and pump you in the bag with a shotgun round...less chaos, more skill.

HI, I know that this thread is basically dead, but....

Why don't we implement a Starwars battlefront-esk system. Where you see a top-view of the map, stylized of-course, and can choose your spawn-point. Moreover, this helps team play by allowing for strategic spawning. I know that this does not stop the issue of first time 'spawn killing', but it does prevent you from spawning in the same point and being killed again.

Also, if a player is killed in the first 2 seconds of play, the 'killer' is not awarded a frag. I play minstaglib games and have had had to spawnkill people who have 'appeared' in-front of me; in a kill or be-killed scenario. Giving them a 2 second grace in such situations would be apermount to giving them a free-frag.

What do you think?

It cant, and never will be corrected.
In any FPS

Barfly wrote:It cant, and never will be corrected.
In any FPS

Sure it can, give the spawning player immortality and make sure it isn't affected by splash, or laser stuff (so that he flies away. Meaning if you shoot laser on the ground below him, he won't fly away.) and make sure he won't be able to fire himself for 2 or more secs.

And this has been done in another FPS, just can't remember which.

ai wrote:and make sure he won't be able to fire himself for 2 or more secs.

Please don't take the ability to laser yourself as soon as you spawn away.

k0jak wrote:

Wii-Wii wrote:I vote for... nothing !
It'd be bad to add rules, rules and again rules everytime players complain...
Moreover, spawn-killing doesn't happen so often... (at least in CTF)
But maybe it'd be good for 1on1 (especially for the ladder matches).

I think this is a true point and i missed this before i wrote my post, it just does seem like adding rules and rules, it's been like this since nexuiz bega from when i have played..i don't see the point in wanting a change now.

what would be next....i took 5 armours in a row so im not allowed to pick another one up next time?

oh and i can't think to imagine how terrible this would be in CTF / TDM when the gameplay is quite frantic..having to wait 1-3 seconds till a players 'invincibility' ran out before you could shoot...even 2 players fresh off a spawn if one gets a weapon and the other just has a shotgun within the time before it wears off then they can both start shooting at you straight away after it wears off...i mean come-on this would be ridiculous, its then putting me who already has weapons at a disadvantage..a really big one.

I agree with Kojak on this one, and I would also add that other than on a map like mentalspace or mentalrespaced and facing worlds, spawn raping is not much of a problem as it is nigh impossible to do on most CTF maps unless you know the map really really well (and most do not including myself).

I would consider mentalspace and mentalrespace to be broken maps if only for the fact that the spawn points are too limited imo. Facing worlds is one of those classic examples of spawn rape, which imo could only really be fixed if their was a teleporter in the back of the citdel near the nex gun that teleported people INSIDE OF THEIR BASE.

That would essentially solve the spawn rape problem on Face, and as far as mentalspace or mentalrespaced, well they are broken by deisgn imo, and a three second invulnerability is not going to stop someone from just lasering people off the edge of the map on mentalspace even if the people spawning cannot take any weapons damage.

Now a mod that PENALIZED killing someone within 2 seconds of him spawning, as in took points away from the person doing the spawn raping on their victim, NOW THAT MIGHT WORK.

3 points subtracted automatically for teamkilling would work well too (imo).

Since most people on galt's are pointwhores this would solve the problems as they would not want to lose their precious little points.

In clan play if you do that kind of stuff when the other team frowns on it, then your just asking for it so there is not problem there really (although that system could be implemented there too).

I say hit them where it hurts, if you want to stop spawn raping (and I am not sure it is much of a problem in CTF), then penalize the player doing the spawn raping by deducting points for killing a newly spawn opponent within 2 seconds after he spawns (2 seconds would give the newly spawned opponent enough time to grab at least 1 weapon or get away somewhat so he can grab one).

My advice is, if you want to eliminate spawn killing make it a MOD for the game, and not built into the engine itself, that way server admins can decide what they want to do or not do based on their constituency and then the DM crowd does not have to suffer some forced implementation no matter what server they goto.

That allows for MORE choice, and not less.

maybe you can put a few seconds of reload after kill

i just realized i read the whole thing...

well the way i see it the best way to deal with this is to just take away the reward from doing it... no frag from killing someone who spawned recently, how much time it takes for them to be worth killing should be a option for the map creator.


i do believe that this will stop purposeful spawn camping completely,
adn make it so that if your there when someone just so happens to spawn, then you dont get an advantage.

although i think that spawn points should be considered "inactive" if someone iss too close to it, unless they are all "inactive" of course!

problem solved?

file 824 ph wrote:i just realized i read the whole thing...

well the way i see it the best way to deal with this is to just take away the reward from doing it... no frag from killing someone who spawned recently, how much time it takes for them to be worth killing should be a option for the map creator.


i do believe that this will stop purposeful spawn camping completely,
adn make it so that if your there when someone just so happens to spawn, then you dont get an advantage.

although i think that spawn points should be considered "inactive" if someone iss too close to it, unless they are all "inactive" of course!

problem solved?

I agree with this entirely. It still raises the question of what to do if the person spawned manages to somehow get a crapload of damage done on the attacker.