For those who don't know, spawn rape (or kill) is when (usually in 1v1 matches) someone dies and the player who is still alive will shoot the spawn points in anticipation of the opponent spawning. Then when they spawn, they immediately take damage before they can do anything.

Another variation of spawn killing (that wouldn't be called spawn rape) is when you spawn relatively close to your opponent who has strong weapons and armor while you only have a shotgun/laser and no armor.

Spawn camping can also be a problem in team games when people will just continuously fire rockets at a spawn point in anticipation of players spawning there.

I would like to discuss some solutions for this, most of which are probably map design-oriented.

What is the downside to map designers placing many more spawn points on a map? Does it add to map performance somehow?

On a side note, I would like it if Nexuiz had a method to select ideal spawnpoints based upon how many enemies are close to the spawn. Even if that meant a spawn would take an extra second to occur (on a busy map) it could still be a plus. I know on some 1v1 maps, it would allow the players to predict where their opponent will respawn, but that's still better than being spawn raped. At least you have some chance to survive.

Maybe a combination of the above could help with preventing spawn rape, which is one on my top five list of horrible ways to die in Nexuiz (the others being from shooting a wall, from falling off an edge, from a teammate, or from a teleporter).

There are 2 possible solutions as far as I can see. First, make nexuiz select the spawn point (in 1v1 matches) furthest away from your opponent. Second (a more general solution), give players 3-4 seconds of invincibility when they spawn. Both of these sound good to me.

torus wrote:give players 3-4 seconds of invincibility when they spawn

Butt approves.
It's working for most shooters. I was wondering, why it wasn't already implemented in Nexuiz.

hmm, actually that would give spawners an advantage for a couple seconds.
Perhaps they wouldn't be able to fire for the same period of time?

Maybe there could be various options and server admins could experiment with a combination of settings to figure out the best solution. Of course, map designers should add plenty of extra spawn points as well.

torus wrote:There are 2 possible solutions as far as I can see. First, make nexuiz select the spawn point (in 1v1 matches) furthest away from your opponent. Second (a more general solution), give players 3-4 seconds of invincibility when they spawn. Both of these sound good to me.

Wouldn't the first of those be exploitable? The other player would be able to force a disadvantageous spawn point on the unspawned player.

3-4 seconds of invincibility could also be really annoying if a player respawns right next to a weakened opponent. Maybe it would be possible to make the spawning player invulnerable to damage from any projectile fired before he's spawned (plus a second or two) while leaving him vulnerable to anything after that. That way the other player can defend himself (3-4 seconds of invulnerabilitycould make a big difference).

Invincibility upon spawn has been introduced before and was implemented on some servers, but 3 seconds is too much. 1 second should be enough time to leave the critical area.

Maybe only the first projectile hitting the respawned player in these 3 (2/1) seconds shouldn't do any damage at all. This very first hit should be enough to detect the position of the spawncamper. The following shots could deplete health as usual.
But then there's still the problem with the MG.

How about the first 2 seconds after the spawn, any damage you deal to the just spawned player also gets inflicted on you And if it kills you there should be a centered message saying:

Well you shouldn't spawn rape anyway!

Would this "invincibility" somehow also prevent being pushed off the edge by a weapon? On a map like Soylent, someone can knock people off the edge right when they spawn.

Dokujisan wrote:Would this "invincibility" somehow also prevent being pushed off the edge by a weapon? On a map like Soylent, someone can knock people off the edge right when they spawn.

I'd prefer projectiles pass through the character.

ooooh...now that's an idea.

Would that prevent them from picking up any entities or using teleporter/jumppads during those seconds?

Or laserjumping?

That means he can receive splashdamage.
Invincibility is ok. But not for long. 1.5 seconds max.

PunkRabbit wrote:How about the first 2 seconds after the spawn, any damage you deal to the just spawned player also gets inflicted on you And if it kills you there should be a centered message saying:

Well you shouldn't spawn rape anyway!

^-- pink genius

[-z-] wrote:I'd prefer projectiles pass through the character.

Good idea imo.
Though this would lead to following problem:

lol

Harry, you should do regular Nexuiz cartoons

Since when are people innocent in Nexuiz?

PunkRabbit wrote:How about the first 2 seconds after the spawn, any damage you deal to the just spawned player also gets inflicted on you And if it kills you there should be a centered message saying:

Well you shouldn't spawn rape anyway!

What if the shot is involuntary ?
The guy fires a rocket on the enemy base and an enemy respawns at the rocket impact...

Wii-Wii, you shouldn't take anything I say seriously

I thought it was serious, it could have been a good idea :/

but doesn't the nexbeam already pass through players?

(this is what makes it possible to make a two-in-one kill)

[TSA] Psychcf wrote:but doesn't the nexbeam already pass through players?

(this is what makes it possible to make a two-in-one kill)

as if that wouldn't work with rockets anyway, or the electro

-) and about spawning as far away as possible... well... if an enemy is in the flagroom on facing worlds, and another enemy is on their tower nexspawnraping... remember, there's an enemy inside your flagroom, so where would you expect to spawn? exactly, right in the aim of the spawnraping warcow

-) invincibility doesn't stop them from pushing you around

-) and I'm totally against the passing through... if anything, the projectile might just be removed... but even that is annoying

How abt a # secs of temorary observer mode, eg player is put on a spawnpoint, can see but not interact with the world (and not be seeen? hmm abusable..) untill he chooses to or the timeout passes.

I think the code should change to:
50% probability to spawn furthest away from most opponents.
50% probability to spawn out-of-view of most opponents.

or

100% change of spawning out of view of most opponents.
Like ut2k4. But can be abusable (opponent can look at ground and the victim can spawn in front of him).

[GF]HarryButt wrote:

[-z-] wrote:I'd prefer projectiles pass through the character.

Good idea imo.
Though this would lead to following problem:
...

ROFL

Anyway, if there should be some kinda spawn protection, I vote for the 3-4 secs invisibility, but then you cannot fire either.

I vote for... nothing !
It'd be bad to add rules, rules and again rules everytime players complain...
Moreover, spawn-killing doesn't happen so often... (at least in CTF)
But maybe it'd be good for 1on1 (especially for the ladder matches).

I like spawnkills, keep them.

A newly spawned character has 3 disadvantages
1. He is disoriented
2. He has a lame weapon / armour
3. He is not moving

3 seconds of invulnerability solves all three. For balance the invulnerability should stop on first pickup or fire (including laserjump). Make them glow also so ppl don't waste ammo on them.

[GF]HarryButt wrote:

torus wrote:give players 3-4 seconds of invincibility when they spawn

Butt approves.
It's working for most shooters. I was wondering, why it wasn't already implemented in Nexuiz.

actually they tried this in ut2003/2004 (cant remember which one)

All i can tell you is that it is THE WORSE thing ever. when you can't shoot someone and someone is shooting you or you have to predict when they are 'allowed' to shoot again at you after it wears off.



The problem of spawn-killing is player skill difference, i can do it, but if i try do it versus bundy or green it is not as easy i can tell you now.

I think it's kind of wrong to want to 'remove it'

Wii-Wii wrote:I vote for... nothing !
It'd be bad to add rules, rules and again rules everytime players complain...
Moreover, spawn-killing doesn't happen so often... (at least in CTF)
But maybe it'd be good for 1on1 (especially for the ladder matches).

I think this is a true point and i missed this before i wrote my post, it just does seem like adding rules and rules, it's been like this since nexuiz bega from when i have played..i don't see the point in wanting a change now.

what would be next....i took 5 armours in a row so im not allowed to pick another one up next time?

oh and i can't think to imagine how terrible this would be in CTF / TDM when the gameplay is quite frantic..having to wait 1-3 seconds till a players 'invincibility' ran out before you could shoot...even 2 players fresh off a spawn if one gets a weapon and the other just has a shotgun within the time before it wears off then they can both start shooting at you straight away after it wears off...i mean come-on this would be ridiculous, its then putting me who already has weapons at a disadvantage..a really big one.

What I learned working on things like this: If you create a situation causing a problem, it is usually not a good idea to try fixing it with a complicated solution. You should rather try to change the situation so that the problem does not occur in the first place.

The main problem when spawning is that you are vulnerable. So make the player start with 100 Health, 100 Armour and a good weapon like the machinegun. Problem solved.

It may also be interesting to be able to choose when (not where) you spawn, being in spectating mode until you press "jump" (nothing new), in this way you can wait until it is safe, or you can go right away but risk being attacked, but you could choose for yourself and depending on the situation.

Lastly, an idea I just had when reading about the invincibility: replace the shotgun with a completely new weapon: The Shield. Firing it will protect you for a short amount of time, touching another player with the shield around you will hurt them. Anyway, just an idea.