hmm, the really bulky part is the lower part of the stem. If the flag could be detached at the mid-section of the stem, where it starts to curve, then it might look okay for the player to carry just that part.

I guess then the lower part of the stem would need to remain in place when someone grabs the flag, otherwise it would seem to just disappear. I dunno how much complexity that adds to the process.

I was also wondering about the flag sticking so far behind the player. If the FC were standing against a wall, the flag would stick out through the wall?

You know what I'll do, I'll release a beta version of the flag. The reason is that I played with it online and sometimes it's hard to see the player actually having the flag. So I want to know what you guys think.
Detaching would work, but that would make the flag even smaller and harder to notice the person who has it. But maybe you guys will think of something.

Download the .pk. As always just put this inside your 'Nexuiz/data' folder: http://ai.planetnexuiz.de/Models/z_aiFl ... E_V0.3.pk3

BTW. If you want to play online with this flag model, from what I tried, only Greens server will work. I haven't tried that many though. It won't work on Lazy Dog and possibly some others as well. But Greens for sure will work.

I think flag shoud change direction according to the players position. Lasers should go off when carrying the flag and turn on when flag is dropped to keep flag in vertical position.




I think this can be achieved by attaching flag to the backbone.

Let's focus on one problem at the time. First of, what should I do about the size of the flag when carried? I have no idea how the game works or how the code is made, if there is a special event when the flag is picked up or not. Which I do believe there should be otherwise turning of the lasers won't work as people suggested to just have a model without the lasers.

So if I do take away the lasers on the model and what that to be visible when it's carried, changing size, or splitting the model up would work. But I need to know what to to with those models later on, where to put them, what to name them and such. So that it co-exists with the code.

@Alien:
Change direction how? As it is now, as seen in the screens. It does change direction with the player. The 'cloth' is always facing outwards from the back. Which I think is a good result already, but of course closer to the body and possibly not so big.
How do you mean for it to change direction according to players position?

Hmm. Model can have animation (different frame groups) so coder can reference those in his code if model has them defined inside. I suppose process is similar to making animated character.

ai wrote:Change direction how? As it is now, as seen in the screens. It does change direction with the player. The 'cloth' is always facing outwards from the back. Which I think is a good result already, but of course closer to the body and possibly not so big.
How do you mean for it to change direction according to players position?

Now the flag is glued to the player (placed at position). Flag position does not change whether the player is ducking or running. It is always placed vertically downwards, which looks bad. I should fix the %$^%$$ picture of mine cause it can't be seen here.

http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/files/3xqw ... 7hjwg2.png

Ok, I understand now.
But before I can go on playing with bones and such I need to know if there's a special event that plays when a player picks up the flag and if it is possible to change that 'carried' flag to something else? Cause if so, I can break up the model like Doku suggested, making the stand stay at base while the flag carrier only have the 'bow' so to speak.

How the flag should look like and the size of it must first be decided before I can go on with animation or bones.

But before I can go on playing with bones and such I need to know if there's a special event that plays when a player picks up the flag and if it is possible to change that 'carried' flag to something else?

Players get broadcast message that somebody picked the flag.

Cause if so, I can break up the model like Doku suggested, making the stand stay at base while the flag carrier only have the 'bow' so to speak.

Yeah, but the stand is required when player drops the flag. Or not?

Alien wrote:Players get broadcast message that somebody picked the flag.

Indeed, but those a special event take place which says which model should be shown once it is picked up? Meaning: Event playing, player picked up flag, use <thisModel>.
Something like that.

Alien wrote:Yeah, but the stand is required when player drops the flag. Or not?

That's a good point, then I suppose Doku's solution has a flaw. Well I suppose scaled down then?

However, I took some liberties and made some changes to the flag, expanded if you want. Now it's a lot easier to spot the flag carrier, and I think it's still open for some solutions if people think it's too big. I took screens from close up, far away and when people was standing next to it so you get a good representation of how it looks like.
I think it looks both better when carried and when it stands in the base. It looked so empty with just one 'cloth bow'.
The polys are more but when I played online with 10-12 people it didn't seem to affect the gameplay with lags or anything.
It's tris is now: 4238

Indeed, but those a special event take place which says which model should be shown once it is picked up? Meaning: Event playing, player picked up flag, use <thisModel>.
Something like that.

Imo, it shouldn't hard to be code.

For people who want to try them out: http://ai.planetnexuiz.de/Models/z_aiFl ... E_V0.4.pk3

Remember, Greens server allows custom flag models (i.e. these to be shown), other servers might not.

So you think the flag is still too big or can I continue on with animations and possible bones once I figure out how that would work ingame.

Me thinks that the flag stick shouldn't reach the ground. Probably it could be raised a bit later, so flags would be above players heads then. This is just what I think.

The stick doesn't reach the ground. It's a little bit above it. But I could scotch everything up a little except the middle part of the stick where the lasers come out from. However, I don't know how far up the flags will go. If they go above the players heads the whole model will look too big, but at least halfway down the flag or 75% so to speak.
I'll try it out tomorrow, and if no more objections or suggestions comes after this change I'll start with animations and whatnot. Meaning the model part would be finished (for the most part, parts where there doesn't exist any animation on the model could, theoretically, still be changed).

Post pics tomorrow (EU time )

I have redone the flag just a tad. However, it won't be possible to make it any taller as it will show through ceilings and such. Also I think I need to scale it down a bit as it pokes through walls as well.

Morfar also suggested to remove the emblem (the top thing) on the flag. I did something just quickly to get the point across how that would look like. Pics below, any comments and suggestions on that? I personally think it sucks without the Nexuiz emblem ;D. At least, the thing I did in the pictures sucks.

So I suppose I will actually lower the flag a bit as well as scale it down. Once done I'll see if it will poke through any walls and such, if it doesn't I'll post more pics.

Personall I like the single flag better than the quad and tripple but overall FANTASTIC JOB!!! This kicks the CRAP OUT OF the current models. I'm excited to play with real flags!!

Great work ai.

Well, the reason why I have 3 flags instead of one is that with only 1 flag it would be very hard to notice the flag carrier sometimes. Especially if you look at him straight from the front. The flag would hardly be visible. I almost didn't notice the flag carrier on greatwall zoomed in with the nex, I shot at a random guy and luckily he dropped the flag. I didn't even know he had it

ai wrote:I didn't even know he had it

Is a smoke trail out of the question? I love that feature in games. Helps people know THEY have the flag too.

Meh, I have a dilemma here.
I scaled down the flags and in certain positions the flag won't show through walls, however the flag still pokes through the walls if the flag carrier spins/and or jumps (thinking about the Greatwall bunker). But also by scaling down the flag it's a bit harder to notice the flag-carrier. The Headhunter model is very big, actually the biggest as far as I know and he's the worst case.

But, I decided to release another beta test version. And now I ask you to download this, put it in your Nexuiz/data folder and play with these online and see what you think. I would love to have some of your thoughts on this. Can you live with the flag being so small or can you live with it poking through walls (I hate the latter myself).
Now as far as I know, Greatwall is pretty much the only map where it is a big problem, the bunker. Other maps might not have such thin walls, but I don't want to restrict mappers to a certain wall-size just because of the flags.

Your thoughts are highly appreciated.
To play online choose 'Green's' if you're in EU, to be able to see these flag models. Don't know any US servers as I never play on them.

Flag models: http://ai.planetnexuiz.de/Models/z_aiFl ... V0.4.1.pk3

-----------

On a totally different note, I found a cool flag bug on the Greatwall map when testing my flag models with morfar. However, we decided to switch back to the original flag models first before recording. Check them out

Flag bug: ai view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=828aWqGOIcY
Flag bug: morfar view: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOKNCNiwaLc

ok, I'm going to try to get some more people to take a look at this thread and comment because it seems only three of us are responding and giving ai feedback so far. If this is to be the next Nexuiz flag model, this discussion really needs input from lots of people.

I think that whole flag should fit inside the bounding box of the model. AFAIK, they all should be the same size. Then there won't be problems with flag poking outside/through walls. Flag should be only an object which you should carry not an object which makes flag carrier distinct.

Making flag player distinct would be coding issue then, e.g. applying glowing orb around him. Even you scale the flag bigger, fc won't be clearly seen using insta nex.

I don't know if making flag a solid object would help, cause then you might get stuck cutting paths around corners. I wonder how our current flag acts when touching walls.

Just for the records, I have been following this topic and I am really quite amazed about the outcome so far. The new flag Model is absolutely fantastic! Two suggestions I would have:

1) The visibility of the FC is absolutely essential. Maybe something can be done with some kind of glow or corona? Or with a very bright red/blue light ball in the center of the flags? I also like the idea of the smoke trail, but I don't know how much this would affect server/client performance (if at all) and what happens to it in the various detail settings.

2) The flag model as such is pretty and fits with the style of Nexuiz and all, but when someone is carrying it, I feel it looks somehow odd that it just "is" there, without no connection to the flag carrier at all. I know how difficult it is to keep the flag somewhat within the bounding box, but I'll say that IF it is possible to change the flag model upon pickup/drop event, then it could transform into some kind of backpack with the three flag thingies sticking out of it. I know Nexuiz abandoned realism long ago but regardless of realism I think that might even look good.

These are just my two cents here, since Doku said you needed some more input. It's rather brainstormy and not really thought out in all details but anyway.

It's not the bounding box that is an issue (for the most part). It's that no flag models can be done that are taller than the player models or even flag models that are rather thick (going from the players back and out). As the original flags rarely are bigger than the players and it's fairly thin. It goes out a bit in the sides but that cannot be too big either. Now the thing is, you would need to basically create flag models similar to the current ones. Otherwise if you do not do that you would run into issues such as the flag poking through walls. The bounding box, I believe is already good. You cannot capture the flag through walls and that's a good thing. If you would change the bounding box you would need to adjust maps accordingly. But limiting yourself to the bounding box for models would limit your flag concepts. Not to mention, limited visibility of the flag carrier for certain flag concepts.
Basically what I'm saying is that, if you would stick with the current bounding box you could NOT create a flag that:
1. Is too tall (taller than the player models)
2. Is too broad
3. Is too thick

Thus these limitation basically say, you can either 'modify' the look of the current flag models, or create a squarish flag model in the same size as the current ones.

------

Esteel said something that a smoke trail wouldn't be too hard to make, as certain weapons has that.
Adding 'glow' or 'corona' to the FC wouldn't be good as those people who doesn't have those settings one (like me) wouldn't even see that. Unless it's made an exception for the FC.

@Halogene & @alien: Yup for now the models just 'sits' on the player, however does the old ones do that too? If not I could use that system.
However Alien, I've been thinking about that bone thing you proposed. How would you implement it? You said something that if the player crouched and stood the flag would move along his body. That I'm clear on. But introducing that would also possibly introduce new issues where the flag model would poke through walls as well. As the flag would move around.

Now I'm all for trying that anyway, I don't think it would be too big of an issue. Just thinking ahead.

I also dislike the 3 or 4 sided flags,and I miss the Nexuiz logo too.I couldn't test the model online,because Green's server was always full.
esteel's idea is good about the particles,the rocket model always leaves a smoke trail behind (just look àt the PB mod ).But this has a flow too, this requires engine changes again,as we know that particles can be turned off,so we're still at this problem,what if someone disables the particles?
(tbc.)

Imho it's better to change the code so that the flags leave a few particles behind,as that might be less stress for older hardware.
On the another issue,I think the best would be to do animation cycles like the flag is actually attached to the back of the player.Note,that this must be done only once,because iirc all player models use the same animations.
How to do the basement stuff?Well,in case there's already a need to change the code (tbc.)

the visibility of the FC,it won't be hard to code that a new,basement-less model is used to carry,and the other one for the dropped/respawned.
Back on the visibility problem,don't forget ai,you've only made a plain texture yet,but no glowmaps,animmaps or glossmaps!
Those will help the recognition too.
Sorry for the triple post,I'm sending these from my cell,and it has a character limit per textboxes

We could always have a vote if people would like 1 or 3 flags. So far I believe it's tied (I like 3 for visibility, morfar share my opinion. And you and Z like 1. Only 4 people ). Anyway, you miss the Nexuiz logo? You mean the cogwheel thing or the actual image on the flags? The logo I used on those flags is this one made by Sant: http://ouns.wikispaces.com/icons
Only modified by colors and such.

Well, now I never have had any thought of this flag being in an official release, one could always hope. What I'm saying is that I don't want to create more work for the devs unless it will be a milestone for future flags. I.e. if they implement smoke trail it would of course be there even if a flag model wasn't present. Thus, focusing on anything else but the models in this thread I believe is useless unless it's official that this model will be official. Cause I don't want to do something to the model which never will be implemented in the end anyway.
All I can do is my best to make the flag the community wants it without any special things like smoke trails.

Now, I could release a version where only one flag is present instead of 3, thus you guys can try out both versions and see which one you like the best, then come back and make a vote someplace. How does that sound?

EDIT: Well you do have a point with those gloss/glow maps. But I still wonder if it will be enough. Well I suppose I have to do them and then decide

I miss the cogwheels
On that official/not official thing:slightly ot here,but imho all devs will accept this as the new flag model,and since the developer team is almost the same as the actual players,I don't think making and sending in a patch would be so hard.If I'd code,I'd write the patch as we speak
/me pokes esteel,tZork,div0 or any other code monkey's out there

Ok, with the cogwheels, you mean the frist design I had or some whole different? Cause I brought back those cogwheels from the other design. These latest images are just for show. The flags aren't like that.

The cogwheels from the first design you've had
Btw I don't see any images at all,cause I've blocked them on Opera Mini

To C.Brutail:

You can test the flag locally.

To ai:

@Halogene & @alien: Yup for now the models just 'sits' on the player, however does the old ones do that too? If not I could use that system.

What do you mean by sits on? Flags position is set 20 units away from player origin, iirc.
So it is basically glued to the player. And I think old/current flags fit inside bb of player, that's why they can't poke through solid brushes.

However Alien, I've been thinking about that bone thing you proposed. How would you implement it? You said something that if the player crouched and stood the flag would move along his body. That I'm clear on. But introducing that would also possibly introduce new issues where the flag model would poke through walls as well. As the flag would move around.

I would use set_attach() (i think it is called like this) function doing similar thing to how the weapon is attached to the right hand of the model. It would work if in all cases flag would fit inside bb. With this flag, the problem would still remain. It does not mean that the flag is bad, it is very good, we just need to improve the system.

BTW, q3 had wider and higher flag than some of the player models (eg. orbb). Yet they (flags) didn't poke through walls. I could check how flag position was changing when player touched the wall when I'll be back from work.

Ai, don't give up. If your flag would be finished, I believe it will be definitelty included. There isn't any other model which could compete with yours yet.