Dear people who make the maps,
If you are considering using both the nex and the rifle in your next map, stop for a moment and think "should I do this?". Most of the time, the nex is far better than the rifle (even considering the trail the nex leaves). Having both makes the rifle seem out of place.

PS: This might be the wrong place to complain but I think it should be said.

The camping rifle was made to replace the nex as it is *weaker* on bigger maps, i.e. it is quite inaccurate at long ranges.

With a nex and a proper zoom configuration, one can shoot someone else from one side of the map to the other just as easily as close-range. That can't be done with the crifle.

But you're indeed right. Putting BOTH weapons on the map is a very bad idea. And the nex can still find its use in some maps.

Well the rifle does not have to be weaker. Its hitscan as is the nexgun and the headshot does MORE damage then a nexshot. Its just harder to use at a distance because the bullet does an arc due to gravity. Also the rifle can easily be used at close range because primary refire time is lower then the nex AND secondary firemode was made for close range. In capable hands the rifle can be stronger then the nex..
Both work a bit differently but i see no reason to NOT have both in a map.

... I thought there were no ballistics for CR? Or at least it felt so in later svn builds

Somehow I don't follow your logic. CR shouldn't be included because the Nex is stronger (or the other way around).
But that would also mean that one shouldn't use the grenade launcher (weaker than electro (depending on usage, like with any other comparison of weapons) ), the machine gun (weaker then HLAC), or hagar (weaker than RL/Seeker)...
Or only include the MinstaNex, that's the strongest of all, and ending up with a Minsta only map.

All BULLETS (mg, sg, rifle) are hitscan-ballistic in 2.5.. meaning they are curved = affected by gravity but still hit in an instant.

There was a time in svn before 2.5 when they were real-ballistic (non-hitscan thus not antilagged but able to travel thru portals)

The effect of gravity however depends on the gun.. for the rifle its the least thus its harder to notice it as it hardly bends. Further bullets can pierce players and walls up to a certain thickness, again depending on the gun. The shotgun is the weakest, it can't even penetrate players

There are a bunch of mapping tutorials out there but there is no good advice on weapon placement for nexuiz. Maybe the wider discussion should be what is good and bad weapon placement in nexuiz specifically. I don't have access to test servers to tweak my weapon placement so I just spread them out and hope for the best. I certainly need some advice in this and can't seem to find any. Comments welcome.

ihsan wrote:There are a bunch of mapping tutorials out there but there is no good advice on weapon placement for nexuiz. Maybe the wider discussion should be what is good and bad weapon placement in nexuiz specifically. I don't have access to test servers to tweak my weapon placement so I just spread them out and hope for the best. I certainly need some advice in this and can't seem to find any. Comments welcome.

If you are working on 1v1 maps right now, you can find the answer here. I am a bit busy these days, so I am not that active with this project nor in IRC. But this will change soon

Generally I try not to lump every good weapon in one spot. In Effluent this was done by having the nex/RL on opposite sides of the map.

Also its nice to have some ammo nearby, but not right next to the weapon. Have the player look for ammo, then have it maybe lead on to some armour/health shards and then so on to more goodies.

esteel wrote:Well the rifle does not have to be weaker. Its hitscan as is the nexgun and the headshot does MORE damage then a nexshot. Its just harder to use at a distance because the bullet does an arc due to gravity. Also the rifle can easily be used at close range because primary refire time is lower then the nex AND secondary firemode was made for close range. In capable hands the rifle can be stronger then the nex..
Both work a bit differently but i see no reason to NOT have both in a map.

sev wrote:Somehow I don't follow your logic. CR shouldn't be included because the Nex is stronger (or the other way around).
But that would also mean that one shouldn't use the grenade launcher (weaker than electro (depending on usage, like with any other comparison of weapons) ), the machine gun (weaker then HLAC), or hagar (weaker than RL/Seeker)...
Or only include the MinstaNex, that's the strongest of all, and ending up with a Minsta only map.

I'll clarify. I'm not saying the nex is always better. Although in most maps that use both, the rifle might as well not spawn. Most maps simply aren't made in a way that using both makes sense. What I'm asking for the map makers to put in more consideration when they are using both.

if this is abt the particular situation nex / rifle on any map, then its odd idea imo. otoh there certainly is a point in not just throwing every gun into every map.

from a pure potential damage perspective the rifle is massively better then the nex. 160 (iirc) and less half the refire. at least for 8 shots.

Most of my newermaps have both. I put both (well I put all weapons usually) so peeps can use their most favorite weapon. I try to spread them out though.

All my maps suck though.

Can all of you guys exploit the CR's power as easily as the nex' ???

Of course it can make more damage, but you need to make headshots constantly, and you have to deal with the long reloading time. That does not make the camper's game easier. What does, however, is having *two* weapons to use at long distance, using two different types of ammo.

My point is that putting these two weapons on one open map would have exactly the same effect as removing the machinegun's secondary fire spread. More long-range weapons, more annoyance.
Having only one sniping weapon makes it easier to get rid of these snipers and control the weapon's respawn place, instead of having campers appearing all over the map.

tundramagi wrote:All my maps suck though.

In terms of gameplay, they sure have some room for improvement, but I still appreciate them globally.



Oh, also, I'm not sure it is necessary to have every single weapon on a map. Especially now that we have more of them in 2.5...
A good mapper should know how his map works, and what weapons would not be suitable. See the nex for example, which was not included on some maps (desertcastles for example: that was a good idea to not put the nex there)

Mr.Bougo wrote:Can all of you guys exploit the CR's power as easily as the nex' ???

Yes. easier actually. Here´s why:

The DPS of the CR WITHOUT head shots is roughly the same as the DPS of the nexgun (~85)

The visual profile is nothing, you wont spot the cr camper (based on the weapons visual profile) until its to late even if he misses most of the shots.

The re-fire is less then half, and the damage. This means each shot hit/miss matter less as long as you land "enough" of them.

The secondary mode if outrageously powerful in close combat, should someone actually find your camphole.

The only reason we dont see ppl crying like newborns over the CR too, is its not on enough maps yet, and ppl haven't realized how powerful it is. The only real drawback is the reload.

But for the arguments sake, lets say its a "babynex" Then should we mappers, since the mg is the same thing as the cr only fire modes turned around, no reload and even less potent, just stick that on every map instead of the cr OR nex?

Obviously game mode consideration should be taken here, a dm maps with cr and nex all over in dark obscured corners are not nice. But for a mode like Assault or CTF where some or all of the teams job accentually are to stop the other team from reaching some spot, you *need* effective ranged weapons, specially at the spreads a good "mover" err moves.

The CR is the camping rifle. Stealthy. Powerful. Requirement of knowing how to aim (since there is drop, also in full ballistics mode you have to lead your target sometimes if they are far away as there is projectile speed (I have this set on my server, it's a good setting). If you don't want to have campers in your map don't put the CR in. It's designed to be a stealty sniping platform. If you want something less campy then use the nex, if you want something even less campy then just don't put either of these in. If you don't like that a map has one of these use the g_weapon replace commands.

The server admin has full control over what weapons are in a map. He can easily tweak all this to whatever player style he wants.

Nex will always remain more favourable as it is a hit-or-miss hitscan weapon dealing enough damage to frag a player with base health.

The camping rifle is less popular for use as a sniper rifle because it has ballistics, which effectively neutralizes the probability of hits, especially headshots.

Besides, the minstaNex is a far superior long range platform than the Nex or camping rifle.

tZork wrote:But for the arguments sake, lets say its a "babynex" Then should we mappers, since the mg is the same thing as the cr only fire modes turned around, no reload and even less potent, just stick that on every map instead of the cr OR nex?

If players would hardly ever use the rifle or the nex, yes. However, that's not the case. Any way, someone with a rifle will often be out sniped by some one with a nex (I can't find any stats so you'll have to use your own judgment). So I think that players wont really bother with the rifle if the nex is readily available.

tZork wrote:

Mr.Bougo wrote:Can all of you guys exploit the CR's power as easily as the nex' ???

Yes. easier actually. Here´s why:

The DPS of the CR WITHOUT head shots is roughly the same as the DPS of the nexgun (~85)

The visual profile is nothing, you wont spot the cr camper (based on the weapons visual profile) until its to late even if he misses most of the shots.

The re-fire is less then half, and the damage. This means each shot hit/miss matter less as long as you land "enough" of them.

The secondary mode if outrageously powerful in close combat, should someone actually find your camphole.

The only reason we dont see ppl crying like newborns over the CR too, is its not on enough maps yet, and ppl haven't realized how powerful it is. The only real drawback is the reload.

I have to disagree with that analysis. The time between when your target dies and when you find a new one in often longer than the cool down so, the DPS isn't a very good metric here. However if the nex had a "heat up" time then, I would agree.

☃ (snowman) wrote:

tZork wrote:But for the arguments sake, lets say its a "babynex" Then should we mappers, since the mg is the same thing as the cr only fire modes turned around, no reload and even less potent, just stick that on every map instead of the cr OR nex?

If players would hardly ever use the rifle or the nex, yes. However, that's not the case. Any way, someone with a rifle will often be out sniped by some one with a nex (I can't find any stats so you'll have to use your own judgment). So I think that players wont really bother with the rifle if the nex is readily available.

A game where all the weapons were equal would suck.

A game where weapons are not equal but unbalanced is a bad game cause everyone uses the same gun all the time.

Alien wrote:everyone uses the same gun all the time.

Like stupid nex whores in nexuiz? Oh, sorry, we were not supposed to talk about them like that. All hail nex users!

Alien wrote:A game where weapons are not equal but unbalanced is a bad game cause everyone uses the same gun all the time.

How about we just all delete nexuiz, then YOU won't have ANY problems anymore. Just delete the game. All the problems are gone. How about you do that, and anyone else who has a constant problem that never ends with the game do that?

If you want all guns to be weak you can CHANGE THE SETTINGS ON YOUR SERVER!
The nex isn't even insta-kill anymore.

5 years from now your contribution will still be complaining constantly.

I never use the Crifle. I always use nex. I can't play on maps where no nex is added. There am I liying, cuz if there's a mortar it's ok too.

"Dear people who make the maps, bla bla bla"

Dear people who don't make the maps but request things be changed in the maps: make your own maps to your own specifications.

My analysis is not based on hitting many targets. its based on hitting the same target many times. any serious threat need more then one nex / head -shot to go down.

tundramagi wrote:"Dear people who make the maps, bla bla bla"

Dear people who don't make the maps but request things be changed in the maps: make your own maps to your own specifications.

You know, the only thing I'm trying to do is help you guys make better maps. Personally, I'd rather have people criticize me so I can correct myself. If you don't like my criticism then, don't use it. It's that simple. However if you want to change someone's mind than you need to do so more receptively. Frankly, you don't seem to be trying. tZork disagrees with me but is definitely trying to convince me.

Dear mappers.

Some tips by me:
* Only have 1 Nex in a map. On CTF maps: max 2 nexes.
* Never put more than 1 Strength.
Facing Worlds sucks ;P

Place items with care, maybe simulate the gameplay in your mind first .
And use my Weapon Info, but the site currently down.

i dont get the logic of this thread.
if you want to help the mappers then go to the Nexuiz - Map Releases and give the mapper suggestions to thier maps.
your advice is somehow useless because every mapper also plays so he knows how a good weapon placement looks like

tZork wrote:My analysis is not based on hitting many targets. its based on hitting the same target many times. any serious threat need more then one nex / head -shot to go down.

I agree that the rifle is better when the target takes many shots but, that wasn't what I was saying there. DPS doesn't measure guns very well in games like Nexuiz (it's fast paced and like most FPSs guns cooldown rather than "warmup").

cortez wrote:i dont get the logic of this thread.
if you want to help the mappers then go to the Nexuiz - Map Releases and give the mapper suggestions to thier maps.

This isn't about just one map but a bunch of them.

cortez wrote:your advice is somehow useless because every mapper also plays so he knows how a good weapon placement looks like

Well, I'd assume most of us play the game but it seems like we disagree on that.

thread needs more wookie

☃ (snowman) wrote:

cortez wrote:your advice is somehow useless because every mapper also plays so he knows how a good weapon placement looks like

Well, I'd assume most of us play the game but it seems like we disagree on that.

i dont know any mapper who doesnt play nexuiz, some play it more and some less. if you disagree with weapon placement go and ask the mapper they are always interrested in improving thier maps

Rad Ished wrote:thread needs more wookie

here you go