@Blog-access-guys: With all respect to your NDAs, would you please be so kind to write a post of clarification, as much as your contracts allow, on your Blog?

Thanks..

If anything, he's the GOOD guy in all of this, he's been nothing but a gentleman. His company bought the stuff from Alientrap, so whoever takes decisions for Alientrap should be blamed for bad decisions that were taken.

This makes it sound like as if Illfonic and Khedrin are innocent passers-by and they just happened to stumble on all of this commotion. There are two parties involved in the deal and you can't say one bears all the responsibility and the other bears none. The agressive replies towards Illfonic are not justified, but neither to they affect how justified or unjustified Illfonic's acts are.

The fact is, there is a group of people, interests, invested efforts and time that go by the name Nexuiz. Suddenly a third party comes and says it will use that name and identity for its own purposes and that the rights to the name have been acquired without the consent of that group of people, interests etc. that bears that name. Sure it's legal through the Alientrap deal, but is such argument supposed to magicaly calm people down when a part of their identity has been taken away? "Legal, contract, already signed, NDA" all you want, but we all know we live in a world where legal doesn't necessarily mean moral or legitimate.

This is how the Nexuiz community feels right now and whether Illfonic likes it or not, this is what they got when they opened the Pandora's box. Claiming they didn't expect this is like saying "But I didn't know she was 16" and expecting you'd suddenly be free of all responsibility. You can't build good public and community relations on such a basis.

I think it's most of all a miscommunication problem.

Apparently the name was not aquired so the FOSS project is free to use it (but beware of the case someone attempts to aquire a trademark for it). And the GPL'd code and data that was already published and distributed are still under the GPL and they will always be.

Illfonic is just doing a fork, and using the same name for it. Which is bad judgement in my oppinion as well as others', and we'll see how that plays out.

But nothing has been "stolen". Nothing has been taken from the community, so far. Other then perhaps their innocence.

Urcscumug wrote:I think it's most of all a miscommunication problem.

That is my understanding as well, there are facts behind the miscommunications, but I think all involved are reaching logical connections and assumptions, eventually.

Urcscumug wrote:Apparently the name was not aquired so the FOSS project is free to use it (but beware of the case someone attempts to aquire a trademark for it). And the GPL'd code and data that was already published and distributed are still under the GPL and they will always be.

Any danger of someone trying to trademark the name has existed from the beginning, it is not new nor is it related to a particular course of action.

It is worth noting that Lee has rights to Nexuiz 1.0 and had acquired those rights before it was even decided that it would be GPL, IllFonic has rights to use Nexuiz 1.0 as basis for their game, so they can avoid all legal questions on the GPL code while still utilizing a large portion of what makes Nexuiz what it is.

Urcscumug wrote:
But nothing has been "stolen". Nothing has been taken from the community, so far. Other then perhaps their innocence. :)
...
Troll

I just now found out about this divisive decision, and it troubles me. I have contributed very little to Nexuiz, but am still rather saddened by this issue. I hope it can be resolved reasonably and that you guys will understand our contentions.

@IllFonic, Kedhrin
We're developers just like you guys, and take pride in our work too. The very little I contributed was to an open source game named Nexuiz, without the knowledge that the game branding -- without my particular content contributions -- was going to be re-applied to a commercial game without consent of all who were involved in the making of the Nexuiz brand. Remember, we didn't just contribute models. We contributed game decisions, community, and viral and word-of-mouth advertising for a game which we thought was going to remain "simple, fast, intense, and completely free". In one of your posts you mentioned that you hoped that we would join your community (this is paraphrased, I'm aware). To us, you must understand this seems very backward.

I'm not saying you don't sell software. I have a day job programming too. Just don't steal the Nexuiz name, and the intangible aspects of its reputation among open source gamers which cannot be covered by the GPL. The name "Nexuiz" doesn't have any relation to any part of the game that you are using (darkplaces, whatever game logic you are using, and so forth -- I do not know any more details), so there is no reason to keep that name precisely. The only reason that I can see is for the exact purpose of confusing your product with the community, or undermining the open source project's brand.

I'm sure this has all been said before, and probably in much better words than mine and from people closer to the project, but I just wanted to add another voice. Thanks.

LordHavoc wrote:That is my understanding as well, there are facts behind the miscommunications, but I think all involved are reaching logical connections and assumptions, eventually.

Err, it would have been better if there was no need for assumptions. It doesn't do anybody any good, all this squirming around, letting people do their own guesswork.

And you happen to be one of the people in a position to clear things up. Some clear-cut answers would go a long way towards that.

IMO the most urgent question is: is the alientrap.org domain still willing to host the Nexuiz developer community, and for how long?

LordHavoc wrote:Any danger of someone trying to trademark the name has existed from the beginning, it is not new nor is it related to a particular course of action.

It is a danger inherent to most FOSS projects. However, that's not the main problem here.

The current confusion stems from the fact that Kedhrin has made it seem as if Alien Trap had some actual rights that were transferred to Illfonic. Have they or have they not?

I can understand Illfonic trying to secure such rights to the name. In fact, I had assumed they had them already, or have applied for them. Simply saying "we've decided to fork this project and we'll be calling the fork the same" doesn't make any sense. Not without exclusive rights to the name.

LordHavoc wrote:It is worth noting that Lee has rights to Nexuiz 1.0 and had acquired those rights before it was even decided that it would be GPL, IllFonic has rights to use Nexuiz 1.0 as basis for their game, so they can avoid all legal questions on the GPL code while still utilizing a large portion of what makes Nexuiz what it is.

The legality of this has been briefly questioned and any doubts have been put to rest since. Ok, Illfonic has a legal right to the code. Whether by full copyright transfer or a relicense, it's not our business.

But, again, that's not the issue. The issue is that a lot of people have been left under the impression that this means the GPL version would cease to exist.

That is obviously not the case, and it would help if it was made as clear as possible. As you can see (right in the above posts by Rad Ished and michaelb), even after several mentions of the fact that the community hasn't lost anything, there are still people who don't believe it, or don't understand it.

Fact is, the community could go right now and register nexiuz.org, or nexuiz.net, cut all ties with Alien Trap, and get on with their lives. But is this how you and Lee want it to end?

You may be busy and have your own life, and it's understandable if you don't want to get too involved. But at the very least you need to put some of the worries to rest.

A simple statement would do: "You can still use the name, you can still use the code and the data, you can still use the site and we'll assist you when you want to move."

To me this seems to revolve around Illfonics purchase of the nexuiz.com address.
They bought this and they want to use it , any addition or change of this would render this thing they spent cash on worthless.
...
@Urcscumug,
I've read everything in this thread and all the others and I've got a pretty good understanding of what all the points of view are,
enough to see when someone is making pointlessly inflammatory remarks.

Urcscumug wrote:But, again, that's not the issue. The issue is that a lot of people have been left under the impression that this means the GPL version would cease to exist. That is obviously not the case, and it would help if it was made as clear as possible. As you can see (right in the above posts by Rad Ished and michaelb), even after several mentions of the fact that the community hasn't lost anything, there are still people who don't believe it, or don't understand it.

I understand that the GPL version can continue to exist, and that there are (most likely) no license violations. I think the main problem people such as me have is the name. I, and many others, contributed to an open source game named Nexuiz. We enabled one of few instances of an open source game breaking into the mainstream. We did this under the implication that the game-named-Nexuiz would remain open source. The game-named-Nexuiz is no longer going to be open source.

The phonetics "Nexuiz" has no relation to the gameplay, engine, or any other elements of the game that may persist in the commercial Nexuiz. AFAIK, it's gibberish. Thus, any name is as good as any other name. This new game is looking very different, so actually it would be pretty reasonable to assume that they'd rename it. However, how its appearing to me, they are choosing to keep the name Nexuiz when in fact it is a completely different game just to cause this confusion and piggy-back on our publicity, which is why I am objecting. This name collision will both hurt the GPL version, and cause contributors to feel as though their work in promoting an identity was stolen from them. I really hope that is not what IllFonic is intending.

Thanks.

maybe call it Nexuiz Original or Classic Nexuiz or something like that, sounds good for me

This is my first post, and I'm a bit saddened by that it has to my introduction to you all. (You can check my profile, I registered before the announcement.)

I'm a new player, my workmates and I have been playing for a couple months now. I haven't posted before, I haven't made any contributions other than being a pretty easy target online, haven't created a website, nothing like that. And illFonic, I do thank you for wading in here and trying to be involved. The fact that you're from the same "roots" however doesn't give you an automatic pass - a better perspective, yes, but please try and take a step back and make sure you've truly thought it through from our perspective as much as possible. This was handled badly, I think we can all agree. The question is, will illfonic/AlienTrap (in their respective areas) have the maturity/guts to say "yea, sorry, we screwed up" and actually do something about it?

iLLfonic: Change or modify the commercial product's name, and give a more prominent link/credit/thanks to the original project. That's it. Do that, and 80% of the ire will be reduced. (I realize some of this is the legal issue and some of it was a bad call on AlienTraps's fault. Doesn't matter, you two sort that out.) The biggest, really the only, issue on your end is the feeling that Nexuiz has been stolen. Which is why a name change/modification would be in our best interests. I realize that it's not something that's just easy to do overnight, you can't snap your finger and have every reference in your possesion changed: building up a "brand" and name takes time and effort. And that's exactly the reason people feel ripped off. A name means something, and it has value. You can't just say "oh, it's the console version, it's unrelated, people will be able to know the difference". If that's the case, then just call your project "Squiggle", since people will understand, right? (You can't have it both ways.) "We" were here first, and you've appropriated the name (and potentially stolen/rerouted traffic to the site.) This is even reflected in your use of "Nexuiz GPL" for clarification, but you never clarify by using "Nexuize PS3" or somesuch. Code/features/anything else that can be contributed back in to the community would be nice of couse, but seriously, fix the name/domain issue and you can go back to fending off people complaining about kb/mouse support. :P

Or they can just rename the original, open project to "illFonic".

AlienTrap/iLLfonic: Besides all of the other questions and just feeling like it was "sprung", your main issue is credit/renumeration, or rather, the (apparent) lack of it. You started a really great thing, and many other people added to it, of various degrees of quality, impact, and even just quantity (time). You have profited from their (and your) work. Legally, you probably don't have to care. Morally, however... Obviously you're not going to be able to "pay" them all perfectly fairly, but couldn't you work something out with Illfonic as a token of appreciation? A few hundred bucks to some of the top contributors, and acknowledgement in the credits wouldn't be amiss. (Copies of Nexuize: illPhonic Console Edition don't count, unless their name is in the credits!) Maybe illFonick* can send you some hardware after their next upgrade cycle to distribute as you see fit or something more creative like that? Remember, how and why you do something is just as important as what you do.

Everyone else, keep questions/comments/gripes about the console version design decisions somewhere else please? It just adds noise.

*Yes, I've been purposely mangling the company name to snarkily make a point...

I really sincerely wish people would actually read what Lee said about the matter some days ago: http://alientrap.org/nexuiz/news

So much speculation is based on things that were directly answered, and I'm getting rather tired of rehashing the same info on Lee's behalf.

Urcscumug wrote:Fact is, the community could go right now and register nexiuz.org, or nexuiz.net, cut all ties with Alien Trap, and get on with their lives. But is this how you and Lee want it to end?

I will reiterate. Nexuiz 2.5 is a community driven project. I have never forced anything on the development of releases without the consent of the community developers in it's history, and this will not change.
I honestly do not see the point in a split like that because Alientrap only hosts the forums and site (both of which are maintained and updated by the community) - the releases and development (the SVN) are still entirely in the control of the community developers.

Obviously, the use of the name and the community was not.

divVerent wrote:Obviously, the use of the name and the community was not.

There is little to fear. Be still and know FOSS is here.

http://www.quakedev.com/forums/index.php?topic=1083.0
http://planetquake.gamespy.com/View.php ... etail&id=2

You are encountering a speedbump of a wet noodle. It will pass.

Nexuiz is a "Free and open source shooter." Not today it isn't. There are million boring FPS games developed by souless "commericial interests". The key is to rise above this. Some will get it; some will not.

Do not have contempt for the "have nots". Ignorance is a sign of poorness of the soul, not of the pocketbook. FOSS is the idea that a project need never ask permission or consent.

http://www.quakeone.com/

Just took a look at Nexuiz.com again and it looks like they weren't completely pulling our leg. Replaced the "PC Nexuiz GPL" button with one that says "Original Nexuiz For PC" and moved it to the upper right corner. What do you guys think? If they leave that button in a spot as visible as that after the console game gets released, there's a possibility that a small wave newcomers will click it. Right now the only thing I'd still like them to do is add a suffix to the title and call it something like "The Nexuiz: Peace through combat", "Kavussari and Forsellians", or something like that. I've said that this game could story wise explain how the Nexuiz began so if they had added a suffix to it then that would definitely help BOTH games by making some of the PC players that own consoles interested in the commercial game while the series new comers see the "Original Nexuiz" button and become interested in this one.

Lee_Stricklin wrote:What do you guys think? If they leave that button in a spot as visible as that after the console game gets released, there's a possibility that a small wave newcomers will click it.

Yes, having your cause usurped is worth a few possible mouse click refers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_360_games

Everyone has their price. Is a few mouse clicks yours?

/Where is esteel when you need him?

Baker5 wrote:

Lee_Stricklin wrote:What do you guys think? If they leave that button in a spot as visible as that after the console game gets released, there's a possibility that a small wave newcomers will click it.

Yes, having your cause usurped is worth a few possible mouse click refers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_360_games

Everyone has their price. Is a few mouse clicks yours?

/Where is esteel when you need him?

I'm just saying that's better than before. Both games can co-exist and if done properly both would benefit greatly from the other. I think if the titles were slightly different from one another that would resolve a lot of the problems we are seeing.

Lee_Stricklin wrote:I'm just saying that's better than before. Both games can co-exist and if done properly both would benefit greatly from the other. I think if the titles were slightly different from one another that would resolve a lot of the problems we are seeing.

And a wonderful way to start would be not stealing the Nexuiz name (aka "A free and open source shooter") so at least people still understood what Nexuiz is and isn't.

Are you going to now call it "GPL Nexuiz" is the name "Nexuiz" is a trademark of a non-GPL commericial interest? What are the ramifications of that? And putting that aside, what of the identity of Nexuiz?

Baker5 wrote:

Lee_Stricklin wrote:I'm just saying that's better than before. Both games can co-exist and if done properly both would benefit greatly from the other. I think if the titles were slightly different from one another that would resolve a lot of the problems we are seeing.

And a wonderful way to start would be not stealing the Nexuiz name (aka "A free and open source shooter") so at least people still understood what Nexuiz is and isn't.

Are you going to now call it "GPL Nexuiz" is the name "Nexuiz" is a trademark of a non-GPL commericial interest? What are the ramifications of that? And putting that aside, what of the identity of Nexuiz?

I will refer to Nexuiz as Nexuiz and console Nexuiz as console Nexuiz.

Lee_Stricklin wrote:I will refer to Nexuiz as Nexuiz and console Nexuiz as console Nexuiz.

If the trademark "Nexuiz" belongs to a non-FOSS company, that is no longer your decision to make. You will be as [un]free to use the word "Nexuiz" as the trademark holder decides.

/I'm not trying to be a "jerk", I am pointing out the legal reality of the situation.

Lee_Stricklin wrote:I will refer to Nexuiz as Nexuiz and console Nexuiz as console Nexuiz.

Me too :)

I won't add a suffix to Nexuiz too, except for the Console Nexuiz maybe.

Anyway, I appreciate that IllFonic/Kedhrin does/did actually enter into discussion with the Nexuiz community. Moving/altering the link to Nexuiz on the console Nexuiz page is a nice gesture too and I appreciate it as such, however, it doesn't actually solve the problem.

In my opinion the deal was simply made without consent of all parties - because the Nexuiz community is part of the Alientrap project "Nexuiz". I know it may be legally different, but all legal systems only TRY to replicate what the majority of people actually feel. I bet if you ask people that are not involved in this either way, then you'd get an answer like "well, they could have taken a different name, couldn't they".

halogene wrote:Anyway, I appreciate that IllFonic/Kedhrin does/did actually enter into discussion with the Nexuiz community. Moving/altering the link to Nexuiz on the console Nexuiz page is a nice gesture too and I appreciate it as such

Translation: I know that the community is getting boned-over by this guy, but it is really nice his guilty conscience has led him to make a presence in the forum to try to smooth over the boning with some lube.

But rather than rehash what is already known, at least on a subconscious level by "Nexuiz climate change deniers", what credentials and track record of successful and completed projects does this gentleman have that such a sacrifice should be made on his behalf?

There's been enough flaming as it is. Nice try, though.

SC0RP's Summary...

http://soundcloud.com/sc0rp/and-so-the-battle-continues

halogene wrote:I won't add a suffix to Nexuiz too, except for the Console Nexuiz maybe.

Anyway, I appreciate that IllFonic/Kedhrin does/did actually enter into discussion with the Nexuiz community. Moving/altering the link to Nexuiz on the console Nexuiz page is a nice gesture too and I appreciate it as such, however, it doesn't actually solve the problem.

In my opinion the deal was simply made without consent of all parties - because the Nexuiz community is part of the Alientrap project "Nexuiz". I know it may be legally different, but all legal systems only TRY to replicate what the majority of people actually feel. I bet if you ask people that are not involved in this either way, then you'd get an answer like "well, they could have taken a different name, couldn't they".

100% agree with you Halogene.
But you put your fingers where it actually hurts: there are 2 dissociate aspects: one "moral" (the one you mentioned), and one commercial.
If Illfonic doesn't plan to modify the game name, it is precisely to promote the underground reputation of the PC version.
Changing the name, even slightly, would traduce the console version to be a replica. Then a lack of authenticity.

I am pretty convinced that the console version will be substancially different from the PC game.
But, at the end, it doesn't matter: what Illfonic wants to buy is the original PC game credibility

[quote="SC0RP"]SC0RP's Summary...

http://soundcloud.com/sc0rp/and-so-the-battle-continues[/quote]
You win one whole Internets.

I am pretty convinced that the console version will be substancially different from the PC game.
But, at the end, it doesn't matter: what Illfonic wants to buy is the original PC game credibility

This seems to be the only logical explanation right now. So far we haven't received (if we have please do link and prove me wrong) any explanation as to why Illfonic decided to use exactly the same name. So my simple question is - why?

You're under NDA, eh? Why was it so important to put this under NDA and prevent the reason to be known? Why all the secrecy? Will we not like the reason?

I will reiterate. **Nexuiz 2.5** is a community driven project.

Sure, you might find your "but I've sold my 1.0 version!" story as an interesting and convenient one. I found it just insulting.

At least for me now it's pretty clear what do you think we are. Matches perfectly what you just did.