Yeah, I tested it and finally I am glad you cannot fire nex (or the same weapon) again faster by switching.

Nil wrote:

divVerent wrote:you can try that out on RBI.

On DCC's public servers (plain, tdm, ctf) too.

Hehe, nice! But some people will be seriously surprised today ...

morfar wrote:I welcome this change

Havent tried it yet, but i second that. this is the way i always wanted it to work.

I really don't like the change, nexuiz is supposed to be a fast action fps with balanced weapon and now the rocket launcher is too powerful, it's much harder to stop the many rocket whores with a 1,5 refire. And being constantly blasted is NOT enjoyable at all. Also what MisterMeister have done with the nex in his demo can be done with the rocket launcher with less precision and less fire in the same time.
Another aspect (who was completely forgot) is there are now many rocket jump whores in ctf going to a base to another in 2-3 second only, how we are supposed to stop them with a 1,5 refire ? That becoming ridiculous. And what about the laser+quad jump ?

the only way for me to accept the change is to transform the crylink in a instant hit weapon like the nex with faster refire rate (1 seconde or less ) and less damage (around 70-90 hp).

TVR wrote:Keep the bug entirely
<None>

Altobe
Mr.Carlyle
Ronan
and 75 % of 23 votes here : http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?t=1374

Ronan: First of all your second posting shows that you didn't read this whole thread. The other poll is outdated. Second, the rl is definetely not comparable to the refire problem. It is not as strong as the nex, the shots can be evaded, and for a skilled player it's possible to hit the rocket with a mortar charge just when it leaves the launcher. I wonder why I have never encountered a "rocket whore problem" in ctf ... except for the very fast flag runs. But a. this a problem of level design (e.g. capture city), b. I doubt anyone can complete such a flag run when hit by a nex shot in between, c. there should be more than one defender, and d. I wonder why you don't use a nice combo like "nex mg secondary fire" instead. BTW: Most of the so-called "rocket jump whore flag runs" can also be done by mortar, laser or a combination of both with or without quad damage. So, if this be a problem, it's about ctf as a game mode, and not about plain, 1on1 or 2on2 dm.

I really don't think anyone with skills actually needs the quick refire rate for the nex - never.

MisterMeister wrote:Ronan: First of all your second posting shows that you didn't read this whole thread. The other poll is outdated.

a poll can always be interpreted and directed like you want, even if half of 23 changed their mind, you can't forget the opinion of the others. And an anonymous poll won't give the same result then a public and argumentative one like here.

MisterMeister wrote:Second, the rl is definetely not comparable to the refire problem. It is not as strong as the nex, the shots can be evaded, and for a skilled player it's possible to hit the rocket with a mortar charge just when it leaves the launcher. I wonder why I have never encountered a "rocket whore problem" in ctf ... except for the very fast flag runs.

i'm not agree, with is radius damage, the rocket launcher is very strong, and in a closed space (like many dm maps) you can't escape easily. So you can use the mortar like you said or the nexgun but without the right to miss anymore

MisterMeister wrote:But a. this a problem of level design (e.g. capture city), b. I doubt anyone can complete such a flag run when hit by a nex shot in between, c. there should be more than one defender, and d. I wonder why you don't use a nice combo like "nex mg secondary fire" instead.

we are talking about ctf on public server where many maps are open, only few people make the defending work, you have to wait to find a good weapon and leave weapons for your teammates .

MisterMeister wrote:BTW: Most of the so-called "rocket jump whore flag runs" can also be done by mortar, laser or a combination of both with or without quad damage. So, if this be a problem, it's about ctf as a game mode, and not about plain, 1on1 or 2on2 dm. I really don't think anyone with skills actually needs the quick refire rate for the nex - never.

you underestimate the speed you can immediately win using the rocket launcher (cf fire-detonated). So if you can't stop them anymore with the nex (hard to snipe the carrier at first attempt), that will encourage again more people to make solo exploit for capturing the flag. The tactical aspect is already hard enough to get in ffa, don't kill him.
For others dm mode, what is the problem with a 1s refire by weapon switch ? you play 1on1 and 2on2 again experimented players and for plain dm beginners play in servers destined to them. And the objective is still to frag the most people...

A qualitative poll is of much more sense in this case because it reflects the real problem.

About not having the right to miss anymore: Well, this is also true for the rl, when engaging a good nexer - except for he may even kill you before your well-aimed rocket hits, and also after it hit, as one rl hit won't kill you as often as a single nex hit will do, so it's a downside for the rl. I'd suggest to play against a real good player, so you will eventually find my point proven to the fullest. A good nexer can't be taken down with the rl - very often it's hearing the rocket resp. getting hit, turning around and hitting with the nex on reflex. A higher refire rate aggervates this to frustration. In a nut-shell: I have NEVER seen anyone dominate a dm map only because he could get hold of the rocket launcher.

As for the ctf issue: I don't think it's sensible to discuss about ffa servers, as teams hardly ever happen to be fair. And talk to the "rocket jump whores" when you meet them and ask, how well they perform against a designated defender (i.e. someone who can defend as well as they can rush) ... And after all: ctf balancing is a topic completely different from the current issue, so if you feel a need for discussion feel free to open up a new thread.

Finally, I'm getting tired of this rubbish "the objective is to frag the most people" argument! Then implement the BFG 9000 for god's sake, so the kills per minute ratio can be tripled or quadrupled and we don't need any other weapon or skill anymore

If you didn't get the point (that a 1 sec nex makes for people dominating the map with it rendering the other weapons useless) by now, re-read this thread. Everything has been said and even though I take your postings seriously, I don't see any new arguments in them.

Ronan wrote:

MisterMeister wrote:Ronan: First of all your second posting shows that you didn't read this whole thread. The other poll is outdated.

a poll can always be interpreted and directed like you want, even if half of 23 changed their mind, you can't forget the opinion of the others. And an anonymous poll won't give the same result then a public and argumentative one like here.

Ronan, you fail to realize that the old poll did not reflect ALL possible viewpoints to this issue, nor did it specifically address the fact that opinions can be changed.

By using text votes, posts require an explanation to hold any merit, while the explanation typed may convince others to rethink their previous ideology, and perhaps change their viewpoint by editing their posts.

Besides, if you cannot publicly state your opinion without logic or reason, it may mean your decision is derogatory to actual cause.

Ronan wrote:

MisterMeister wrote:Second, the rl is definetely not comparable to the refire problem. It is not as strong as the nex, the shots can be evaded, and for a skilled player it's possible to hit the rocket with a mortar charge just when it leaves the launcher. I wonder why I have never encountered a "rocket whore problem" in ctf ... except for the very fast flag runs.

i'm not agree, with is radius damage, the rocket launcher is very strong, and in a closed space (like many dm maps) you can't escape easily. So you can use the mortar like you said or the nexgun but without the right to miss anymore

All weapons and alternate firemodes with a combined refire/animation time greater than 300 milliseconds are affected by this exploit.

The rocket is not inexplicably set to the default best autoswitch weapon.

Ronan wrote:

MisterMeister wrote:But a. this a problem of level design (e.g. capture city), b. I doubt anyone can complete such a flag run when hit by a nex shot in between, c. there should be more than one defender, and d. I wonder why you don't use a nice combo like "nex mg secondary fire" instead.

we are talking about ctf on public server where many maps are open, only few people make the defending work, you have to wait to find a good weapon and leave weapons for your teammates .

After this problem is solved using the proper method, the root cause of unsatisfactory defending can be identified and corrected.

That may mean discouraging weapon based methods to increase jump distance and height.

Ronan wrote:

MisterMeister wrote:BTW: Most of the so-called "rocket jump whore flag runs" can also be done by mortar, laser or a combination of both with or without quad damage. So, if this be a problem, it's about ctf as a game mode, and not about plain, 1on1 or 2on2 dm. I really don't think anyone with skills actually needs the quick refire rate for the nex - never.

you underestimate the speed you can immediately win using the rocket launcher (cf fire-detonated). So if you can't stop them anymore with the nex (hard to snipe the carrier at first attempt), that will encourage again more people to make solo exploit for capturing the flag. The tactical aspect is already hard enough to get in ffa, don't kill him.
For others dm mode, what is the problem with a 1s refire by weapon switch ? you play 1on1 and 2on2 again experimented players and for plain dm beginners play in servers destined to them. And the objective is still to frag the most people...

Currently, CTF in Nexuiz isn't what most are accompanied to; solo flag runs and difficulty defending/retrieving flags are the by-product of maps unaccounting for high game play speed, and excessively powerful weaponry.

Of course the game play could be changed to suit the CTF maps, but Nexuiz, a fast paced, DM based game, prohibits this.

No, the fast pace of the game through such tricks like laser jumps has to stay. It should indeed be possible to make concentrated attacks that overpower a defense. The problem is just organizing them.

Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire resetting on the same weapon

I haven't contributed to this topic any of the other times but I've been thinking about it a lot. As long as the bug/feature is there, I'm going to use it or its like competing in the special olympics or a walking contest. I (ab)use it well. However, I think it should change.

I do like what it's meant allow and I prefer to use it that way. I like firing the nex, alt firing mortar and firing nex again in 1.6s. Its good so long as the nex isn't firing again magically faster than its usual rate.

As for playing with this bug/feature, it feels like you have a reload. Consider a game that reloads your ammo when your clip runs out, but also allows you to reload manually, faster. The player is rewarded for planning ahead by reloading.

*** Maybe the nex's alt fire could be a reload set to 1.0/x secs? ***

As is, the swap is a little buggy. The results are not consistent. Sometimes the swap will animate the nex going away, the laser appearing, the laser going away and nex appearing. Sometimes the swap wont even show the laser but theres some odd delay before the nex refires, but sitll under 1.5s. Even taking the human factor out of this and scripting it does the same inconsistent results. Sometimes 1.0, 1.1, 1.2

Slightly OT but I saw someone else mention it. I think think the RL is a bigger problem than the nex with this bug/feature. The problem doesn't show up in ctf because the maps are open but on smaller maps. As big as the blast radius is, the edge shouldn't do 50 dmg. I spend a lot of time on the edge of the blast thinking I'm just out of range and then bam, 50dmg. 10 or 20 tops would be a great edge damage.

As much as I hate when people use that trick, I think it should stay that way because it's an acquired skill. Yes it's annoying for newbies but that's what happen when people play a game for a long time and get good, they can do stuff that you can't yet. Unless bugs in a game can be used to cheat and they're in a game for a long time, they become a "feature", so removing/leaving them in is a complicated issue.

IMO weapons are very balanced as they are, RL is perfect too. Blast radius is big but rockets are very slow moving, to me that balances it out.

[EDIT] Oh, didn't realize this was an old thread. I blame mkzelda for making me believe it was.

The only weapon I really hate is the Machine Gun. It is way overpowered, and for some reason stops the player in mid air. This makes 0 sense. Other than that, I agree with you.

torus wrote:The only weapon I really hate is the Machine Gun. It is way overpowered, and for some reason stops the player in mid air. This makes 0 sense. Other than that, I agree with you.

I find the push on the MG annoying as well, as it stops you from getting close enough to hit the MGer with a closer range weapon.

Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire resetting on the same weapon

After the release of 2.4 I won't be able to hit with the Nex anymore.

Pardon me, but where's the STOPPING NERFING SH*T voting option?

Oh, and I don't care.

Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire resetting and prevent switching weapon for half the refire rate of the gun.
OR
Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire resetting on the same weapon. (and consider that as a skill.) But personally I don't like to switch guns in a fight, but that's a game play discussion.)

nifrek, weapon switching causing refire time reset is recent in the sense it was introduced in 2.2.1; previously weapon refire time was a global constant of 1.5 seconds, applied to all weapons regardless during weapon switch.