Let's change it to KAIZO NEXUIZ.

Some ********** added cyberparcour01 to Nexuiz. This map is just as frustrating as all the nexrun maps, I am unable to beat it because I always fall off.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 2262158881

I propose:

either let's remove cyperparcour01 from svn again, it is REALLY frustrating and would be very good to drive new players away...

or let's decide this is the direction to go, and also add all the nexrun maps, and evadproject.

Basically, because of this, Nexuiz Race is no longer enjoyable to me, and I regret implementing that game mode. I wanted it to be "Race", not "Complete this shit".

I would say it could be good to have 2 categories, 1 for actual race maps and 1 for more tricks oriented maps. But then, might end up with needing more categories eventually and end up with a mess.

I guess I don't have a real suggestion. But I'm sure there is a solution to this problem.

Perhaps instead of putting things into categories of different types of races...

Just have each map rated with a difficulty level ranging from "I can strafe!" to "Holy crap that shouldn't be possible!"

ya ive noticed that the race servers have maps that arent really race maps . it seems there are maps that are more like puzzles . i really dont enjoy having to use a porto to hit certain walls when im in the mood to " go fast" . i mean i like to play and figure things out sometimes as far as puzzles go. but this mode ddnt say anything about tomb raider style maps . cyber pourcur or whatever , is a neat map but i think it should be in a different mode along with a few other trick style maps .

I agree that Race and "Complete this if you can (like the test maps)" are 2 completely different things. To bad there are no good looking Race maps afaik.
But I see CyberParcour01 as a Race map, there are several landing platforms to save you if you fall. I agree that it's a hard map, it might be better if you spawn at the last checkpoint when you die. It can be frustrating when have to start over all the time.

this is just a video of how hard i thought cyber was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arEzvDmWzqQ

The difference between most "complete this shit" maps and Cyber Parcour series, is that the latter is actually explorable and fun even if you're not very good with trick jumps. If you planned to add any such maps at all, you should start with Cyber Parcour. (In fact, it would set a good standard for acceptable race maps game play-wise and also quality-wise.)

Not adding such maps to the repo will obviously not change the current race map trends, and people will keep making insanely hard maps. It's not surprising that a lot of people (myself included) see this kind of game play as where the main attraction of the race mode lies. Just look at every game in existence that includes the objective "move from point A to point B as quickly as possible" and you'll see people adding obstacles in the way and creating "impossible" paths. Just as adding these maps will not "drive new players away" because more (not less) variety just can't do that. Those maps should not be in the campaign, though.

I suggest the following criteria for official race maps:

-> Be able to be played interactively with others

All CTS race maps automatically fail this because of only one spawn and/or obstacle course can't be completed with competition.

-> Have weapons

Without weapons, it's impossible to interact, turning any race map into CTS.

-> No ramp jumps

From a codeside perspective, ramp jumps are an exploit not everyone can perform, every single gap should be cleared with normal jumps.

These exclude every CTS map, allowing only racing game style maps such as subseatrack, raceway, street race, etc.

This also allows for existing DM/CTF/ONS maps to be converted into competitive race maps with a few waypoints, perhaps even team race.

I think that adding this kind of maps in Nexuiz is a good thing. Basically it's like adding a new game mode, and I don't see how adding a new way to play could keep away players, instead of bringing them. It's just for this same reason that race mode exist, to bring something new in nexuiz.

Obviously we shouldn't force players to play the hardest maps, putting them on the main campaign. Doing this would be bad.

Having lots of race maps, a race "campaign" would be awesome, but better if focused more on the running skills instead of on the strategic skills.

If you want good Race maps, don't listen to TVR, listen to racers. It's fair to have simple, no way you can't complete it maps... but it's just as important to push the people who really thrive on the gametype to new levels. Their contributions are what will bring the gametype to the next level and popularize it.


Also, quoting this:

Icarus wrote:this is just a video of how hard i thought cyber was: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arEzvDmWzqQ

This might only just be my opinion, but I think that when you attempt to keep maps that require a higher skill level out of a game......You keep the players from getting any better.

I also think that cyberparcour01 is still considered a race, because you are still timed, and some people can do the map faster than others can. This is even true with a straight race map. some people can strafe better than others. Prove me wrong, please.

From what I see in the topic post of this thread, the difference between race and complete this shit is that race is a straight line with 3 checkpoints: 1 at the start, 1 at the middle, and 1 at the end, and then a teleporter back to the first checkpoint. (Even a turn in a map requires map movement skill and it CAN be frustrating. [see "the_turn" map]).

Complete this shit, however, is for maps like "the_turn" and those that require more skill to complete. If that is how you wish to think, please, do make a gamemode called "complete this shit".

The problem is, once we officially support "Complete This Shit" style maps, mappers will in the future not make race maps AT ALL any more.

cel_hell - CTS
complexirace - CTS
cyberparcour01 - CTS (even if you use the noob rails, you fall off all the time, but this could be fixed by supporting the actual race mode and not just qualifying, and putting more checkpoints, and by making falling off the track not deadly, but just time wasting)
cyberparcour03 - CTS and VERY much like super mario forever
dibrun - CTS
dibrun2 - CTS
hagarrun - CTS
cb_race1 - CTS
nexrun1 - CTS
nexrun1_fun - CTS and not fun
nexrun2 - CTS
ozorun - CTS
slopez - CTS
space_race - CTS
test99 - CTS
vert - CTS

aggressorrace - Race
darkzonerace - Race
racing_worlds - Race
Into the vixen - Race, but missing race spawns, and bad checkpoint placement (as in, it's not obvious where to go, as it should be on a race map), but at least an attempt
HookRace - Race
looves - Race, but pointless
yourewinner - Race, but not Nexuiz
ninja_run - Race
nordiccastle71 - Race
organicrace - Race
ovalrace - Race
powerslide - Race, but lacks spawns and has a teleport from end to start, instead of being a cycle, which REALLY shouldn't have been hard on that map
runrunrun2 - Race (due to the teleports instead of kill triggers, it's actually playable)
sideloop18 - Race
slalom - Race
streetrace - Race
subseatrack - Race
the_turn - Race, but pointless as race map
tripzonerace - Race
warfare_race - Race

weird_towers - mix of CTS and Race

cyberparcour02 - a freaking MAZE (and intentionally no radarmap provided, of course), and you DIE AT THE END - someone did not understand Race apparently
test00 - Puzzle
test01 - Puzzle
test02 - Puzzle

See the pattern? The race maps are all quite old, except for powerslide and vixen (which is however actually a DM map that also has some race support)! People do not even MAKE race maps, all people now make is CTS maps. This sucks. By officially supporting CTS maps, people will have even less of a reason to make actual Race maps.

I wonder if I should add code checking if a map contains actual race spawns and not just qualifying ones, as this is a clear method to detect CTS maps...

....You really don't get my point, do you? Technically every race map could qualify as "CTS" because the objective is to COMPLETE THIS race(SHIT), and every CTS map could still qualify as race.

My other point is, taking maps like cyberparcour01 out of Nexuiz will only be a hindrance to players looking to get good. Maybe we should rethink how we find out what maps get into Nexuiz.

whenever im playing race CTS maps seems to be more popular

"....You really don't get my point, do you? Technically every race map could qualify as "CTS" because the objective is to COMPLETE THIS race(SHIT), and every CTS map could still qualify as race."

No.

In race maps, the objective is being fast.

In CTS maps, the objective is to beat it at all, as that is hard enough.

Get the point?


"My other point is, taking maps like cyberparcour01 out of Nexuiz will only be a hindrance to players looking to get good. Maybe we should rethink how we find out what maps get into Nexuiz."

No, my point is, we should not take such frustrating maps INTO Nexuiz. It's just in svn at the moment, not in any release, and should never be. People can play it on their favorite server anyway of course.


"whenever im playing race CTS maps seems to be more popular"

And this is what I hate. Race is totally unenjoyable to me because people do not even want to play race, but always CTS, CTS, CTS... and it is why I regret making this game mode even. And by officially adding a CTS map, we just support this abuse of the game mode. Plus. Nexuiz is very buggy on such maps (e.g. race-after-qualifying mode fails as after qualifying, everyone starts at the "pole position") as it simply IS NOT MADE FOR THAT ABUSE.

actually you can complete cyber in the actual race mode with proper race spawns. as for my previous maps like slopez and hagarrun and dibrun i had no idea what the ACTUAL race mode was. im sure 75% of the people who played race when it was only like aggressorrace etc only played qualifying because they didnt know about the actual race mode. as for dibrun2 you CAN play the ACTUAL race mode.

"No.

In race maps, the objective is being fast.

In CTS maps, the objective is to beat it at all, as that is hard enough.

Get the point? "

No...The objective of CTS is to complete it, then optimize your run. BTW, you run in RACES.

"No, my point is, we should not take such frustrating maps INTO Nexuiz. It's just in svn at the moment, not in any release, and should never be. People can play it on their favorite server anyway of course. "

And you'll notice, that on these servers, CTS(ITS RACE, REALLY!!!) maps are played more often than "race" maps. It's because these maps are liked generally by the community. Naturally, the nice and detailed race maps(and other types of maps too) should be put into Nexuiz, then!

And the "community" which "like" these maps don't actually like the MAPS, but like boasting and watching noobs like me fail at them in spectator mode.

Also... the people who enjoy just being fast already stopped playing race due to the CTS maps being so frustrating to them. You know, it's not fun any more if you fell into the same damn pit at the first jump for the 100th time without succeeding once.


"No...The objective of CTS is to complete it, then optimize your run. BTW, you run in RACES."

Except most people can't even GET to optimize their run as it's impossible to beat to them.

Icarus wrote:actually you can complete cyber in the actual race mode with proper race spawns.

It has NO proper race spawns, it lacks spawns with race_place being set for the restart of the match after qualifying. These spawns should be placed on multiple spots so people who were faster in qualifying start in front of the people who were slower in qualifying (like in AN ACTUAL RACE). And they are entirely missing on cyberparcour01.

Code: Select all

                         ###
    ---------------------###---
   /    >>>>  7  5  3  1 ###   \
  /     >>>> 8  6  4  2  ###    \
|     ------------------###     |
%%%%%%%%                 ###|    |
%%%%%%%%                 $$$|    |
| ^ ^ ------------------$$$     |
\                       $$$ <  /
  \                      $$$ < /
   ----------------------$$$---
                         $$$

###:  classname = trigger_race_checkpoint, cnt = 0, targetname = finish
$$$:  classname = trigger_race_checkpoint, cnt = 1, targetname = cp1
%%%:  classname = trigger_race_checkpoint, cnt = 2, targetname = cp2
>:    classname = info_player_race,                 target = finish, angle = 0
1:    classname = info_player_race,                 target = finish, angle = 0, race_place = 1
2:    classname = info_player_race,                 target = finish, angle = 0, race_place = 2
....
8:    classname = info_player_race,                 target = finish, angle = 0, race_place = 8
<:    classname = info_player_race,                 target = cp1,    angle = 180
^:    classname = info_player_race,                 target = cp2,    angle = 90


Directly taken from the docs. Is it so hard to read docs? cyberparcour01 misses the spawnpoints 1 to 8.

"And the "community" which "like" these maps don't actually like the MAPS, but like boasting and watching noobs like me fail at them in spectator mode.

"Except most people can't even GET to optimize their run as it's impossible to beat to them."

NOBODY will complete a map they just don't like. And once again, how will noobs get better? LEARNING TO COMPLETE THESE MAPS.

Dictionary.com wrote:race -noun 1. a contest of speed, as in running, riding, driving, or sailing.

Dictionary.com wrote:contest -noun 1. a race, conflict, or other competition between rivals, as for a prize.

Which is why CTS cannot be considered a competitive race, there simply is no competition or interaction.

CTS is considered a time trial in racing games, therefore playing CTS with other players, but without interaction, is merely time trials on the same server.

For this the maps should be actually beatable.

Repeating the same stupid jump 100 times and being stuck there does not exactly motivate you. For this, you'd need a different style.

For example, you could make alternate paths with differently spaced (and many, like, 10) platforms, and then a pathway in which you have to crouch. You'd start out with hitting the easiest platform, and gradually go one platform to the right in order to beat it. Using the farther platform means less way to crouch, so you actually win time by getting better. Or, you can use a large trigger_push pushing you to the right, and after this a sharp turn right comes... the farther you jump, the more will the jumppad turn you to the right, and thus the less time you lose.

That way, you can ACTUALLY train it WITHOUT getting frustrated!

CTS is not what this game mode was intended for. It's what it's being used for now mostly, but NOT as intended. Iirc Race was a substitution for the Flag runs on CTF servers where the sole goal had become to make the fastest cap on a map and it was detrimental to the gameplay.

I enjoy both uses by the way. But sometimes I just want to race and not CTS and all that is ever played is CTS on the servers. That's how I lost my appetite for making race maps. I'm probably partly to blame, I made the first CTS map for Nexuiz with the first version of Runrunrun (still using flags for time keeping) so that type of map has also always appealed to me (it had one flaw though, a very small passage that allowed TVR to block the whole map for all players )

How about splitting up this game mode into a Genuine Race and a CTS part? So that mappers and server admins had to choose between them? Maybe we could figure out a way for CTS to become a mode in its own right. Sure, it would probably become more popular than Race but that's not a reason not to do it. How about the first requirement being that a CTS map can NOT be a loop?

I for one would probably start mapping for Race again. Unfortunately none of my maps are really fit to go into the game itself. But an idea for a true-to-style American dirt track ala Knoxville is still brewing

so basically if i open the .map of each race map that you listed above as "Race" they should all follow the criteria of 8 spawns or whatever?

Could be done, however, as an autodetection for CTS I'd use the fact that no race place spawns exist.

runrunrun2 BTW qualifies as a race map, due to not being frustrating (it's just water, sure, it makes you slow, but at least it does not freaking kill you). Why can't other race map authors make their maps that way?

Problem is, if we make CTS a separate game mode, we actually SUPPORT that style of maps officially, and thus must include such maps with the game. And that is what really should not happen. To quote LordHavoc on this:

two thinks tick me off in maps:
1. the map is my enemy
(the players are supposed to be my enemy, not the map)
2. nonsensical abstract junk, with no polish, no balancing, no flow

So if such an autodetection happens, it will hide the maps from the menu by default, and a cvar has to be set to switch to them. This can NOT become an official game mode!

Icarus wrote:so basically if i open the .map of each race map that you listed above as "Race" they should all follow the criteria of 8 spawns or whatever?

8 spawns was an example, but if it's less than 3, it certainly did misunderstand the game mode.

"Repeating the same stupid jump 100 times and being stuck there does not exactly motivate you. For this, you'd need a different style." - Div0

Or, you could do it the old-fashioned way, which always seems to work (repetition!!!).

Example: I had trouble at first with completing cyberparcour03. However, after trying atleast 10-15 times, I WAS ABLE TO COMPLETE IT!!! I FELT SOOOOOOOOOO AWESOME!!! It was the feeling of well-earned success. Failure and willpower compelled me to complete it, and I did!

Also, I like how you say the maps are unbeatable when clearly several players have beat them.

"Iirc Race was a substitution for the Flag runs on CTF servers where the sole goal had become to make the fastest cap on a map and it was detrimental to the gameplay." - PinkRobot

Well, CTF maps had obstacles too . Plus, CTF evolved as gameplay (although it still keeps the basic concept), why can't race?

And yeah, I like your idea of a new mode, with the concept of CTS but not called CTS (the name is....yeah not exactly the best for the younger players, even though this is the internet.)

@div0: I don't see why we SHOULDN'T support this kind of map officially, when the map is explicitly BUILT to be your enemy. Those who don't like it can refuse to play it.

to be honest i dont know how cyber is bothering anyone seeing as that its not even in the campaign.

The problem is that it's bad enough that mostly such maps are made. The game mode is dying, only this abuse survives. And officially supporting CTS maps will lead to ONLY this being ever made again

But good to know that these maps are the cause why PinkRobot makes no more race maps. Not surprised.